Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: PCN...for 'no' parking ticket REDBRIDGE
FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
fairparking
Hello All

Friend of mine was parked outside a church for a wedding & came outside for the photos to see a PCN for 'not having a ticket'

However they did have a ticket and although was on view, Redbridge saying it wasnt, hence the PCN

I admit it could have been in a MORE prominent position (possibly slipped) but it was there - he disputed via email & asked Redbridge to
provide photo proof and one of them you can see the ticket!

He also sent a scan of the paid car park ticket to Redbridge

Initially the friend has complained via Email. I enclose:
- text of the emails on 2 jpegs
- PCN ticket
- parking ticket
- Redbridge's 2 photo 'evidence of the car'

last displayed email to them you can see was 21/05...please bear with will update with current response from Redbridge
nonetheless they have not conceded sad.gif

thanks in advance













OK just found out that after his email to Redbridge on 21/05 (on the scan of the emails) there was a standard Redbridge reply saying we will respond within 56? days unsure.gif thanks
DancingDad
Got the photo showing the P&D ticket?
fairparking
Apologies if not clear...it is on the 1st car pic...seen just above the right wind screen wiper, as it meets the dash

I have attached a photo with some highlighting

DancingDad
You say those are their CEO photos ??

If so, I would be ready to bung in a third informal appeal.
With that photo and clearly stating that this is the P&D ticket a copy of which has already been supplied.
And that being as the requirement to both pay and display had been satisfied, cancel the PCN.

Both sent to date, do not clearly state that the P&D ticket was on display, so at the moment, the guy considering is simply faced with a CEO saying no ticket and nothing from you (your mate) saying otherwise.
fairparking
Thanks DancingDad

Yes these are the photos they sent in their initial reply email (I trimmed the time and date stamp from the bottom right of the pics)
& are referenced here

from Redbridge via email:
'As you can see from the attached photographic evidence at the time of the Notice being issued there was no ticket displayed in your windscreen...'


Ill formulate a response (on his behalf) and paste on here for feedback

thanks
hcandersen
Your challenges have missed out a key point which is whether the authority accept that the ticket was visible on the dashboard but that its details could not be read, or read easily, or that some could and some couldn't.

You must write to them and establish this point of their argument.

Dear Mr. Parking,

Thank you for your email dated *** and letter dated **** in respect of PCN no. *******.

I am unclear regarding your reasons for not accepting my challenge and I should be grateful for clarification.

The photos which were included with your letter show something white on the dashboard - see photos no. *** timed at *** where this can be seen above the right windscreen wiper. This was the ticket which I included with my challenge which I had placed on the dashboard as instructed on the ticket. The photo does not show it clearly because of the angle (the photo was taken from the front of the car at least a bonnet's distance from the windscreen).

In your email you refer to the ticket not being 'displayed in your windscreen', however, there is no requirement to place the ticket in or on the windscreen, only to place it on the dashboard.

I should be grateful if you would therefore confirm whether, based on the CEO's notes, the authority accept that the ticket I supplied was on the dashboard and in view - possibly not to your standards regarding visibility but certainly in compliance with the instructions on the ticket - or whether the CEO claims that no ticket at all was on the dashboard.

This information is essential in order to enable me to decide whether to make representations and ultimately to appeal.
fairparking
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 28 Jun 2015 - 14:04) *
Your challenges have missed out a key point which is whether the authority accept that the ticket was visible on the dashboard but that its details could not be read, or read easily, or that some could and some couldn't.

You must write to them and establish this point of their argument...

...This information is essential in order to enable me to decide whether to make representations and ultimately to appeal.


'hcandersen' I appreciate your thoughts, I am pretty sure they are reporting the CEO found No Ticket on display, from their email reply 14/06:

'As you can see from the attached photographic evidence at the time of the Notice being issued there was no ticket displayed in your windscreen, it is the drivers responsibility to ensure they display the ticket so that it can be clearly seen from the outside of the windscreen prior to leaving the location therefore the PCN must stand.'

But if you saying legally and in terms of how I appeal I need them to categorically confirm this (& clarify it is not a 'placement' of ticket issue), I certainly can email and ask...
hcandersen
Display in the windscreen is not the issue, all you are required to do is to place on the dashboard the correct side up and according to you, you did. I don't know whether the white item was your ticket and whether it was displayed, you were there and I wasn't.

if the authority say that there wasn't a ticket on the dashboard then say so, and this is what my suggested draft is intended to tease from them. If it's that the ticket could be seen but the CEO has been briefed that if it is not 'displayed in the windscreen' then a contravention has occurred, then let them say so.
Chingford Chap
OP, please listen to hcandersen.
DancingDad
QUOTE (Chingford Chap @ Sun, 28 Jun 2015 - 20:04) *
OP, please listen to hcandersen.


Yup.

I would however point out that there already seems to be a second challenge in process.

@ HCA
Not arguing against as we are broadly on same tack but are you suggesting sending now? Before a response to the second?

Actually, thinking on it, I'd say yes, the point has to be made sooner or later and it may jar something lose from the second challenge.
fairparking
Apologies my photos seem to have disappeared they have inadvertently been deleted my end...does anyone know how I can edit my previous posts to add the new links?
OK so I have formulated my response email, id appreciate any feedback before I send:

'Further to my representation via email on x April (& a second on x May, of which I have not yet had a reply to), thank you for your reply email dated x May in respect of PCN no. x

I am unclear regarding your reasons for not accepting my previous challenges and I should be grateful for clarification.

One of the photos which were included with your reply email on the x May show something white on the dashboard - see photos with the time stamp in the bottom right: ‘x pm on x date’

…where this can be seen above the right windscreen wiper. This was the ticket which I included with my challenge which I had placed on the dashboard as instructed on the ticket. The photo does not show it clearly because of the angle (the photo was taken from the front of the car at least a bonnet's distance from the windscreen).

In your email dated x May you refer to the ticket not being displayed in your windscreen (‘no ticket displayed in your windscreen’) however, there is no requirement to place the ticket in or on the windscreen, only to place it on the dashboard.

I should be grateful if you would therefore confirm whether, based on the CEO's notes, the authority accept that the ticket I supplied was on the dashboard and in view - possibly not to your standards regarding visibility but certainly in compliance with the instructions on the ticket - or whether the CEO claims that no ticket at all was on the dashboard.

This information is essential in order to enable me to decide whether to make representations and ultimately to appeal.'
DancingDad
Seems fine to me.
fairparking
Thanks Dancing Dad, until I know how to alter older posts, I will re post the pictures below in case anyone wants to see








Picture with P&D ticket highlighted smile.gif

fairparking
Amazingly after an auto email advising me of an up to 56 day response they contacted me today via email

'Dear x,

Please be advised that a Charge Certificate was sent to you on the 9th July this is a payment only notice.

However, as a sign of goodwill, I have cancelled the Charge Certificate and logged your email as a formal representation where you questions will be answered and a reply will be sent in due course.

Regards

Parking Appeals'



thanks in advance
DancingDad
Do what ?????????

Charge Certificate ?
Didn't think they had even served a Notice to Owner?

If they had and your mate ignored it, this is a good result.
If one didn't turn up, could be lost in post or a CC served out of time.
In the latter case, they have no business cancelling only the CC as serving one out of time allowed is a Procedural Impropriety.

But please confirm which is which.
fairparking
Hiya

My friend has been away from home a lot since the incident, I asked and the only thing he has for from Redbridge in the post is

'Charge Certificate was sent to you on the 9th July'

Nothing else

Should he now sit tight or respond again?

thanks
DancingDad
Taking the 21st of May plus 14 days as earliest an NTO can be sent (4th June) a CC could be sent in correct timing from 5th July.
And if one sent on 9th July, he should have had that in post.

If he hasn't, either post is going missing (Two required Notices/Certificates) or wrong address.
Is his V5 (log book) up to date with DVLA ? Not a previous address by any chance ?
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (fairparking @ Wed, 15 Jul 2015 - 15:21) *
Hiya

My friend has been away from home a lot since the incident, I asked and the only thing he has for from Redbridge in the post is

'Charge Certificate was sent to you on the 9th July'

Nothing else

Should he now sit tight or respond again?

thanks


I'm reading this as he has received the charge certificate (just a cut and paste)
fairparking
Hiya sorry about that...just trying to save time, yes you are spot on!

My friend has said he has ONLY received the Charge Certificate referenced by Redbridge is their response email and no other correspondence

I have a feeling as well he has lived at his address for quite some years and the car always been registered to there since he has owned it

(am double checking now)

thanks
fairparking
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 15 Jul 2015 - 15:27) *
Taking the 21st of May plus 14 days as earliest an NTO can be sent (4th June) a CC could be sent in correct timing from 5th July.
And if one sent on 9th July, he should have had that in post.

If he hasn't, either post is going missing (Two required Notices/Certificates) or wrong address.
Is his V5 (log book) up to date with DVLA ? Not a previous address by any chance ?


I checked and he has lived at the same address for 20 years and the car has been registered to that 1 address since he took ownership

Next move?

thanks
DancingDad
I think wait and see apart from an email stating that it seems two notices have gone missing in the post. And to confirm correct address for any further correspondence with a request that they amend their records if a different one is being used.

Your friend sent in a second challenge after the rejection of the 14 May (21st May ?) and I assume that HCA's suggestion was sent.

It would seem that they are treating these as Formal Challenges having cancelled the phantom CC
So would seem there is a phantom NTO around as well.

Either they will accept and given the evidence of CEO photos showing something in the screen, really ought to
Or reject and give chance to go to adjudication.
Where not only can friend show credibility and the P&D ticket to an adjudicator but also ask for an explanation of phantom notices that strangely go missing.
hcandersen
OP, would you please just post a simple time line. I can fill in some of the gaps but not all:

1. PCN served 11 April;
2. Challenge made 13 May;
3. Authority reject 14 May which clearly implies that a NTO would not be served before 28 May;
4. Further challenge sent 21 May;
5. Further challenge which clearly refers to their response of 14 May sent on or about 14 July, auto response received;
6. 15 July, email received from authority advising that a CC had been issued on 9 July which they had now cancelled and that your 'email' had been logged as formal representations.

Did you send the authority any other communications by email between 21 May and 15 July? If not and if your further challenge was as per your draft in post # 11 (pl confirm) then IMO this leaves the authority in the mire.

They were not able to treat any communication before the NTO (earliest date of service 2 June) as formal representations, neither could they treat your further challenge as representions because it clearly refers to their response of 14 May.

fairparking
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 16 Jul 2015 - 14:57) *
OP, would you please just post a simple time line. I can fill in some of the gaps but not all:

Did you send the authority any other communications by email between 21 May and 15 July? If not and if your further challenge was as per your draft in post # 11 (pl confirm) then IMO this leaves the authority in the mire.


Hiya,

this is everything I know, apologies if dates where not clear, I was blanking out for privacy before

Timeline

1. PCN served 11 April;
2. Challenge ( No.1) made 13 April (via email);
3. Authority reject 13 April Challenge (via email)
4. Further challenge (No.2) sent 21st May (via Email) - auto response received; (awaiting still an actual response)
5. Further challenge (No.3) sent 15th July which clearly refers to their response of 14 May - auto response received & 2nd real response on same day (see 6.);
6. 15th July, email received from authority advising that a CC had been issued on 9 July which they have now cancelled and our 15th July 'email' had been logged as formal representations

There where no further challenges between 21st May - 15th July

Advice on next move? thank you
hcandersen
Wait for the authority's response.
fairparking
Perfect, thank you
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.