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CarinW
Hi All,

Yesterday I was driving in the town where I live in heavy traffic that was going quite slowly through the main street of the town. Upon rounding a bend in the road, I saw a traffic officer in the road, pointing at my car and requesting I pull into this parking area on the side of the road.

He told me that I had passed his colleague standing somewhere along the road and that the colleague had informed him that I had been talking on my mobile phone. He said the device was being held in front of me and I was looking at the screen.

I am quite certain he got the wrong vehicle, and told him as much - I showed him my phone was still in my handbag, and I wasn't using it in any way - I also told him that my phone automatically connects to my car bluetooth and is fully controlled via my steering wheel, there is never a need for me to look at my phone. I said I thought his colleague was mistaken or he had the wrong car. He told me his colleague had seen me not 30 seconds before and he asked for my licence and issued me with two carbon copies of the Traffic Offence Report.

This is the first time this has ever happened to me and I am flabbergasted. I was definitely not using my phone. It wasn't in my hand! It was in my handbag!

The officer told me that the next step is they have to send me a notice of penalty or something like that.

What I was hoping for from you all is some advice as to the process now - is there any kind of time frame for this? I am completely innocent - what is the procedure for contesting this offence report?

Any advice welcome.
Jlc
QUOTE (CarinW @ Fri, 5 Jun 2015 - 11:49) *
I am completely innocent - what is the procedure for contesting this offence report?

The legal process would be to reject any 'offer' they may make (e.g. fixed penalty/course) and take the matter to court and plead not guilty. (But is obviously not without risk)

You could pursue the matter with the force themselves but they are likely to continue on the above path.
Logician
You cannot contest the Traffic Offence Report as such, it is a report that goes to a central office who decide what action to take, that might be the offer of attending a course to avoid any other action, a fixed penalty, or a summons/requisition in a serious case. for using a mobile phone it might be a course if the area offers them or a fixed penalty. You do not have to accept either, you can opt to go to court and contest the offence. That would mean that the officer who claimed to have seen you using the mobile would have to attend and give evidence and be subject to cross-examination by you or your legal representative; similarly you would evidence in your defence and be cross-examined on it. You should be aware that if you opt for court and are found guilty, you will be liable not only for points and a fine for the offence but also for prosecution costs of up to £620 and the new criminal courts charge of £520. Your Bluetooth connection is not conclusive because many people use mobiles as a sat-nav so holding one in front of the steering wheel could indicate that, of course if your car has sat-nav built in or this was in an area you know well you would have no reason to do that.

Faced with the gamble of going to court or not, perfectly innocent people may opt for the lower risk of accepting a course or fine for fear of a much for expensive outcome. it is a very unfair system but that is the way it is.
StuartBu
QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 5 Jun 2015 - 11:03) *
it is a very unfair system but that is the way it is.



You are darned right it is !!!!

TO OP....I guess this happened in England or Wales ?
Jlc
QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 5 Jun 2015 - 12:03) *
Faced with the gamble of going to court or not, perfectly innocent people may opt for the lower risk of accepting a course or fine for fear of a much for expensive outcome. it is a very unfair system but that is the way it is.

Indeed. But as fightback forum if you know you were not using the device then you shouldn't accept any course/fixed penalty.

However, the system is extremely weighted against you - only you can decide if it is worth risking potentially well over £1,000 at court. You would have to attend. Cases are won and a lot depends upon your credibility. You would need to work on the fact the officer was mistaken rather than lying.

QUOTE (StuartBu @ Fri, 5 Jun 2015 - 12:12) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 5 Jun 2015 - 11:03) *
it is a very unfair system but that is the way it is.


You are darned right it is !!!!

TO OP....I guess this happened in England or Wales ?

That's a good point - if in Scotland then it's definitely worth taking the matter to court.
CarinW
Thanks for the feedback, all.

This did happen in England, very close to my home in fact. To the person who mentioned about using the phone as a satnav - I have a satnav with a mount stuck on the windscreen. I had no reason to use any device as navigation on this journey, though, I was merely going to the local shops.

As to whether the officer was lying or not - I have no reason to believe he would lie - I truly think there was either a miscommunication or misunderstanding. Apparently there was one officer standing up the road, clocking motorists doing wrong things including talking on the phone. I didn't see him. He then communicated to the group of officers further down the road that he saw something and they stop the motorists. I think there must have been something lost between the two because I was not using, holding or looking at my phone.

I think the first officer saw someone but the second officer pulled the wrong car over.

For speeding offenses there is usually a photo involved. Would there be a photo involved here?

Out of interest, is it legal for an officer to hide himself somewhere to catch motorists unawares?

EDIT: I guess I just wait for something to come in the mail now. Is there a time limit to this or can they send it whenever?
Rallyman72
QUOTE (CarinW @ Tue, 9 Jun 2015 - 18:25) *
For speeding offenses there is usually a photo involved. Would there be a photo involved here?

Out of interest, is it legal for an officer to hide himself somewhere to catch motorists unawares?

No photo.

Quite legal, however you say you didn't see him so how can you be certain he wasn't in full view and you just didn't notice him.
Spenny
While there is a nervousness about court, magistrates do intend to be fair and want to come to the right decision and they do not automatically believe the police.

In this case you have a credible and consistent case:

1) You have a number of reasons why you can be sure that you were not using the phone.
2) You made the police aware of this at the time.
3) The policeman who stopped you was not the one who claimed to have seen you. The opportunity for error is obvious without needing to suggest that the police were lying - honest mistakes the courts can readily accept, the suggestion of the police lying is hard for them.
4) You have been able to make your case here lucidly and so I think if you went to court with your righteous indignation, that would come across.

If you have a fairly common car, then your story becomes even more compelling.

The magistrates most likely will be presented with a police statement stating very little more than that they watched you using your phone - and not a lot else. You will have a credible, consistent and convincing story and I would expect that faced with that, add in some questions about what they did when you pointed out the handbag and so on, then the magistrates would not be happy about it being beyond reasonable doubt.

So while you should be rightly wary of the high costs of going to court, I personally would be quite confident of winning.

The question you have to ask yourself is "Is it worth the risk compared with the offer that they make to accept the guilt?" I would personally fight on principle, but you must weigh your own circumstances. Perhaps come back when you get the offer and mull it over.
CarinW
Thanks everyone for your comments.

I finally got my letter, and as expected it gives me 3 options:

1. Educational Course - I've looked into this, and it's £90 for the half day course.
2. Conditional Offer - £100 and 3 points (my license currently is totally clean).
3. Attendance at Court - £lots

Obviously I would prefer to contest this in court, however I am afraid of the costs. Also, even if I win the case, I would probably need some legal advice/representation which would cost quite a bit more than the course or offer. Not to mention the time required off of work.

I am considering taking the offer and the points. Mainly because that will not require me to take (unpaid) leave to attend a course. Although the course is cheaper, the loss of earnings would be greater than the £10 difference. Perhaps I will mull this over for a few days before committing.

Thanks again for all your advice!
Gan
Get some dummy insurance quotes for the effect of the three points

That's the real penalty because it could affect your premiums for five years

It also means that it would only take one more offence to put you on six points when you can look at serious expense
peterguk
IMHO, take the course.
fedup2
Once you accept the offer and 3 points you have to notify your insurance company,keep that in mind,you will also have to declare it for the next 4-5 years at renewal time.

I think you would be very foolish not to take time out and suffer the course.
nosferatu1001
Have you checkd, as courses in my area ruin at weekends as well. There must be a day when you wont be working...
silverfox60017
Take the course, cheaper and nil points, My SAC had several dates i could go on and a Sat was one of them. The three hours goes quick. just do enough to let them see you are awake and taking it in,. And i did find the the course very interesting esp the dissestion of The M4 Hungerford fog multiple
And Dont question anything that may seem 'not right'
Like
The words SLOW on the road means someone has been killed there

With 5 exceptions ALL raod signs are placed there because there has been an accident

Just Take brain dead quotes like these up with the course provider, they are very interested in feedback. I just queried the road sign quote as ' Is this true?'''
Richy320
If you are innocent, take it to court.

You won't need expensive legal representation, the good folks on here will guide you through the process.

Why admit to something you haven't done for the sake of convenience?
AntonyMMM
QUOTE (Richy320 @ Thu, 9 Jul 2015 - 08:22) *
If you are innocent, take it to court.

You won't need expensive legal representation, the good folks on here will guide you through the process.

Why admit to something you haven't done for the sake of convenience?


A noble sentiment, but realism and risk management sometimes leads to a pragmatic decision.

Take the course.
Richy320
QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Thu, 9 Jul 2015 - 08:31) *
QUOTE (Richy320 @ Thu, 9 Jul 2015 - 08:22) *
If you are innocent, take it to court.

You won't need expensive legal representation, the good folks on here will guide you through the process.

Why admit to something you haven't done for the sake of convenience?


A noble sentiment, but realism and risk management sometimes leads to a pragmatic decision.

Take the course.

Everything that is wrong with British Justice summed up right there!
zippy777
I've been to court in a similar circumstance, went against me, the magistrate was in a grumpy mood and in a hurry, significant negative impact on my opinion of "justice". I'd go on the course.
StuartBu
QUOTE (Richy320 @ Thu, 9 Jul 2015 - 10:11) *
Everything that is wrong with British Justice summed up right there!


+1
timbstoke
This is exactly why, as well as a dash cam watching where I'm driving, I also have one watching the driver. Should I ever find myself in a situation such as this it will be invaluable.
spanner345
Some years ago, Two of our finest saw me using a mobile at a traffic light junction. I had a distinct advantage though, my phone was almost a mile away at home.

It seems the police can see what they want to see!
CarinW
Well, it seems almost unanimous that I should rather do the course than take the points. So that's the option I've gone for.

A few points of interest:

1. They don't appear to offer this course on weekends at all - the speeding course is offered on weekends, the 'What Drives Us' course for other offenses doesn't appear to be offered on weekends at all in the counties that I can get to.
2. Hertfordshire courses are cheaper than any others nearby. £85. Go figure.

Not all counties offer the course. This means I have to travel to Hertfordshire as my closest available option, and instead of half a day it'll be a whole day off. Annoying.

Just wanted to say thanks for all the help, tips, views and opinions. Sorry I'm not brave enough to take this to court.
Richy320
QUOTE (CarinW @ Tue, 14 Jul 2015 - 10:28) *
Sorry I'm not brave enough to take this to court.

Shame. Admitting to something you didn't do is fundamentally wrong.

The government perverting the course of justice!
peterguk
QUOTE (Richy320 @ Tue, 14 Jul 2015 - 18:43) *
The government perverting the course of justice!


You make me laugh! biggrin.gif
Ozbert
But then, isn't admitting to something you didn't do also perverting the course of justice?

Isn't that what Chris Huhne's wife got banged up for, or was it the fact that she was doing it to get her husband off that made it PCOJ?
Spenny
QUOTE (CarinW @ Tue, 14 Jul 2015 - 10:28) *
Well, it seems almost unanimous that I should rather do the course than take the points. So that's the option I've gone for.

A few points of interest:

1. They don't appear to offer this course on weekends at all - the speeding course is offered on weekends, the 'What Drives Us' course for other offenses doesn't appear to be offered on weekends at all in the counties that I can get to.
2. Hertfordshire courses are cheaper than any others nearby. £85. Go figure.

Not all counties offer the course. This means I have to travel to Hertfordshire as my closest available option, and instead of half a day it'll be a whole day off. Annoying.

Just wanted to say thanks for all the help, tips, views and opinions. Sorry I'm not brave enough to take this to court.

Well, I think the court option is a risk, but you would have a good chance of success. I think some people are overly jaundiced about magistrates, but my instinct is that people on this forum who have a genuine case (as opposed to those hoping to work the system) have usually succeeded. The cost of success is still a morning off work to attend court.

I would at least satisfy an itch and write to my MP pointing out that you feel pressured into stating you committed a crime when you have a clear conscience and a valid explanation of events. The costs of court are out of all proportion to the seriousness of the offence. If you are with the likes of the AA, a word to them might inspire them to campaign on this issue.
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