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FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
Mk1VR6
Hi All.
you guys were recommended to me by my freinds on the Scirocco Register Forum & the Coraddo Forum.
I know what your thinking - sportscar driver = bound to be speeding - well nope. I was in me old escort van as it happens doing the speed limit ( or so I thought!)
details:
1. The name of the Constabulary: Humberside
2. Date of the offence: 22/02/06
3. Date of the NIP: 28/02/06
4. Date you received the NIP: 01/03/06
5. Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): A1079 Beverly Road Nr Junction of Downfield Ave Hull
6. Was the NIP addressed to you?: Yes
7. Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery?: Will dig envelope out!
8. Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? If not then what is your relationship with the vehicle?: Yes
9. How many current points do you have? : 3
10. Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons.:
ok Here goes.
I go to Hull quite often so am aware of this speed camera - big yellow thing in middle of road!
I am aware of the 40mph limit & thought I was doing that.
Road was pretty quiet. 7.01 pm. There was a car say 50 yds or so in front of me I vaguley remember apart from that not much on the road. I saw the flash as i went past it & looked immediately @ the speedo, I'd say it read 43mph. I had drifted a few mph over. I thought they wouldnt do me for that. But they have me down as doing 47mph on the NIP. No way. Van is an old standard diesel van, no mods that would upset the speedo. So what now. NO WAY i was doin 47mph. I am aware of the camera - its big & yellow enuf! It is not in an accident blackspot - so is obviously just a revenue maker. Not so funny thing is I had a clean licence till last year (I'm 37) & got got on a motorway by a mobile camera in a van by guess who? Yup Humberside police. Apparantley it had been in the local press @ the time re how much money they were collecting on that stretch. They musta flashed every car as I was in a LONG line of traffic doin 83mph.
Anyhow back to the job @ hand.
There NIP saysI cannot have photographic evidence & that it will be only produced in court. That I cannot have a copy of the calibration cert - ditto reason. I cannot remember any white lines on the road ( if that helps?) although cannot be sure without checking.
All help appreciated.
Anyone needs help with a Scirocco let me know!
thanks all.
Hope for lots of help ( fingers crossed!)
cheers
Mike
andy_foster
I'd suggest writing to the scammers, requesting photos to help identify the driver (don't expand on this and spin them a yarn).

Was it a Gatso or a Truvelo?
Mk1VR6
ok will do. Our lass is also insured you see.
what about the certificate thingy?
erm....... dunno on the gatso thingy. Big Yellow box on a post on the central reservation if that helps.
you guys are cool with your help here.
I am really miffed cause I KNOW i was not doin 47.
scammers..........
lots of help please!!
Mike
andy_foster
QUOTE (Mk1VR6 @ Thu, 2 Mar 2006 - 19:24) *
erm....... dunno on the gatso thingy. Big Yellow box on a post on the central reservation if that helps.


Big yellow box that takes 2 pictures of the rear of your car, or big yellow box (with a magenta filter) that takes 1 picture of the front of your car?
Mk1VR6
Howdy
I THINK that we got flashed once just before we went past it. I seems to be angled to catch oncoming traffic.
But I would have to check. I am pretty sure it is pointed to the traffic coming towards it rather than traffic having gone past it, but cant be sure.
I will have to pop to Hull to find out. Is it worth doing anything else if I take the trip?
cheers matey
Mike
blademansw
QUOTE (Mk1VR6 @ Thu, 2 Mar 2006 - 13:30) *
There NIP saysI cannot have photographic evidence & that it will be only produced in court.


They have obviously forgotten that evidence has to be served at least 7 days before court if they wish to introduce it into the proceedings (according to Mr Freeman...)
Mk1VR6
Howdy all,
well its been some weeks, but I got a reply to my letter asking for more details.
Here is the letter I sent.
=================
Dear Sir /Madam,

Apologies for taking your time up with this letter, but I hope you can help, or pass this letter on to someone who can.

I recently received the attached document from yourselves and have some queries. I am sure you have heard plenty of excuses regarding speeding in the past, I am not here to give you any of those or beat around the bush I can assure you.
Let me explain.
I come to Hull reasonably regularly on my travels and am aware of the speed limits & this particular camera – it is quite obvious being as big & yellow as it is!
Anyhow at the time of the alleged offence, I was on my way to Inglemire social club to take part in one of the heats for Hull daily mail talent trail. I was looking out for the road I wanted as I had never been to Inglemire Club but had looked up its location on Mapquest. I needed Cottingham Road but I couldn’t remember if it was the Tesco’s turnoff or the one after. Anyhow because of this more than any other time I was being careful with my speed so as not to miss any turnings or signs. I seem to remember there was a car some way in front of me & not much else. I passed the camera with no worries at all about my speed & caught the flash, I panicked (as you do!) & glanced at my speedo, which was settled near enough bang on the 40mph mark. So I was happy then as I knew I wasn’t speeding and made the assumption it must have been at someone else, maybe in the other lane – as I have never been sure which lane the camera points towards. That was that. I found my way to the club & incidentally was put forward from my heat into the quarters (it was in the Hull daily mail on Friday of the same week).
So when I got this I was shocked. I had forgotten about the incident, it wasn’t an issue, I wasn’t speeding, and that was that.
Having read it & seen the speed given as 47mph, there must be an error. I am aware that modifying vehicles with different size wheels etc, can alter the reading, but this is an old diesel escort van which is standard, it’s kept that way to keep it as cheap as poss. to run! I could understand maybe if it wavered a mile or 2, but 7mph? 17.5%? No…… I would be able to tell if it was playing me around, after all it does do 0-60mph in around 5 minutes.
So as far as I am concerned I am innocent. Of what charge is kind of irrelevant to me, if I had got caught doing something wrong then fine, it would be me own blooming fault & therefore only myself to blame, but I am not going to put my hand up & admit something I haven’t done. Easy life or not. It’s just not the just thing to do.

So I ask your help I suppose, as I am not a criminal I assume that I won’t be treated like one, and therefore you will be able to help me.

I have done nothing wrong & seek to prove that.
I have done a small amount of research as to doings with cameras etc. And have the following questions / need the following information to help me with my case.
I note you say on the form I cannot have a copy of any calibration certificate? Surely if I am to help myself prove I didn’t do anything this is one item I need? I don’t understand how anyone can bring a prosecution if the defendant cannot see any evidence against them prior to a court case. This would surely be unjust and unlawful?
Ditto with any photo evidence surely?
I assume all the above would contain all the camera details, make, model, ( gatso truvelo etc) & relevant road markings to prove it is fully up to date & legal.
I do feel as though the system (which I know you guys don’t control you are just doing a job) is unjust.
You send me a document, which basically says ‘ pay up now and save yourself any hassle later’. I.e. pay £60 or you may have to pay £1000. By ‘eck – I wish I could do that in my carpet salesman’s job. ‘ If you pay up front sir, it’ll only be £60, but if you leave it till later it’ll cost you a grand’. What a sale closer!
Mind you I am sure there are a few double-glazing sales people etc that probably do! But I don’t think we’d get away with that at Allied!

Anyhow that’s all the information I have really. I have signed the form as requested and hope you can help me get this sorted,

Thanks for your assistance.

=======================

Info in the reply:
The alleged offence was taken on a fixed camera, truvelo.
There is no entitlement to advance evidence disclosure of evidence under Magistrates Court ( advance information ) Rules 1985.
However if the case goes to court, either the defendant or legal representative can apply for any relevant items to the CPS once a summons has been issued.
They are unable to provide any copies of evidence to me, however, if I wish to view the photgraph I can do by making an appointment, alternatively it may be possible for them to forward it to my local Police station for me to view, but I am informed it will show that I was travelling at 47mph.
I dunno what to do next. I am adamant I was not. Our lass thought I was doing 45 when she glanced across, but from the passenger seat the speedo looks like it is reading more because of the angle, so this only enforces my belief I was ok. But I seem to have little choice..................
??????????
Oh yes - one last thing, I sent em my NIP in the post with my letter, only signed at the bottom as requested, no other box signed i.e. court / admission of guilt by taking fine etc. They have not returned this. Although many references are made in the reply letter to fill in the appropriate bit on the nip i.e if I wish to go to court / accept fine etc. & return it to them. But I can't - I aint got it no more!
PLEASE tell me they can't send another if they lost it!
cheers
Mike
(praying for some small loophole inthe system!)
JohnnyBGood
Hi, a truvelo can take a photo of the front of your car (can also be set for rear, but unlikely). Does the camera you think that flashed you look like this http://www.truvelouk.com/
They have the advantage of showing the driver more clearly. If you watch the video it's more likely to show your face glare.gif but it may not due to angle and glare and reflections.
If the letter above was what you sent, then I think maybe the letter gave a bit much information and tried to enter into a sensible dialogue with the camera partneship which from all advise I've seen seems to be the wrong approach. I think just a "unsure of driver, photo please" letter as andy foster did say would have been better as you have then said nothing.

You could persist with the evidence (video) viewing, likely from the sound at main PoliceHQ near to you (morning off work!) but you'll need to keep up the incorrect speed measurement arguement as some way along the line they could drop the case (though not really that likely). It depends what the video is like. There's always the PACE arguement. Please double check before you write back to them though. Best of luck
Rallyman72
If it is a Truvelo it is a single still picture - no video.



There are very strict guidelines covering the installations. The front wheels of the offending vehicle should be in the middle of the three check lines painted on the road. If you go to the Truvelo UK site the technical specs are there.
Mk1VR6
""Does the camera you think that flashed you look like this http://www.truvelouk.com/""
yes that is the one.
I have sent the pace statement with a notr regarding the fact I cannot enclose the NIP, as they never returned it with my reply letter.
will look into the strict guidlines reffered too, but any more info appreciated.
""If the letter above was what you sent, then I think maybe the letter gave a bit much information and tried to enter into a sensible dialogue with the camera partneship which from all advise I've seen seems to be the wrong approach. """
ah well too nice a guy I suppose ;-)
DOH!
cheers all
Mike
Mk1VR6
Hi all
ok.
I sent a pace letter.
They have sent me a new Nip to replace the one they lost - a photocopy by the look. No covering note re the pace letter sent.
what now?
I also note I am sure when I went thru There the other day they had turned the camera round to face the other lane. Also someone mentioned 3 white lines with a truvelo? I am sure there was only one.....
thanks all for you advice, it is greatly appreciated..
Mike
andy_foster
QUOTE (Mk1VR6 @ Sat, 1 Apr 2006 - 08:35) *
Also someone mentioned 3 white lines with a truvelo? I am sure there was only one.....


The 3 white lines (with the benefit of a magenta flash at night) look like this. Could look like 1 thick line from a distance.
Mk1VR6
Ah I see, had a look at the web site too - very close together. will confirm.
so what do I do now? the new NIP looks like a photocopy?
Do I:
a- ignore it
b - sign part of it & return it
c - something else!
cheers all,
feel like a forum 'user' as I cant really offer any advice in return - unless anyone has any Scirocco Problems!
Mike
patdavies
QUOTE (Mk1VR6 @ Sat, 1 Apr 2006 - 20:31) *
Ah I see, had a look at the web site too - very close together. will confirm.
so what do I do now? the new NIP looks like a photocopy?
Do I:
a- ignore it
b - sign part of it & return it
c - something else!
cheers all,
feel like a forum 'user' as I cant really offer any advice in return - unless anyone has any Scirocco Problems!
Mike


If you have sent a fully completed PACE statement (as per the example on the site) then the preferred option is a)
Mk1VR6
QUOTE
If you have sent a fully completed PACE statement (as per the example on the site) then the preferred option is a)

Yes I have copied the exact text for the pace from thi site and inserted my details where required.
With a covering note that said "I cannot return your NIP with the details you have requested as you have not returned it to me with your letter. Please find attched the details you require."
and attached the PACE letter.
I received a copy NIP but no note or letter this time.
so ignore it?
what is LIKELY to happen next?
once again I cannot thankyou enuf!
cheers
Mike
Mk1VR6
Hi Guys.
ok it finally happened I got a further letter.
It is a reminder to send them the full name address etc of the driver - I did this on a pace letter as per previous posts, so what now - remind them of that fact?
cheers all
Mike
Maths For Fun And Insight
QUOTE (Mk1VR6 @ Sat, 6 May 2006 - 12:17) *
ok it finally happened I got a further letter.
It is a reminder to send them the full name address etc of the driver - I did this on a pace letter as per previous posts, so what now - remind them of that fact?

If you sent the PACE letter by recorded or special delivery, then try to resist the temptation to communicate with them - you may inadvertently give them something admissable in court which can be used against yourself.
Mk1VR6
ok Thaks for the reply matey.....
To sum up to save anybody having to read all the above.....
1 - Got Nip
2 - Posted letter protesting innocence blah blah (yes I know waste of time!) also sent the original NIP in with this on the 13/03/06 - sent special delivery.
3 - Got letter back on 20/03/06 saying you are guilty blah blah etc. Please return signed NIP. Had sent NIP to them in the original envelope unsigned - so didnt have one.
4 - sent pace letter with quick cover note explaining no nip to send as they didnt return it to me, enclosed is the info you need, with attached PACE letter. sent special Delivery
5 - Got 'copy' NIP on 31/03/06 Ignored (as advised)as had sent Pace.
6 - 05/05/06 got letter stating"You have failed to meet the requirement and ciourt proceedings will be instituted against you unless within 7 days you supply the full name address & birthdate of the driver" etc etc.

Now good news & bad news.........
eejit that I am the mess that is also to referred to as my office has eaten the slip proving special delivery on the PACE. They must have got it to send me a copy NIP. Surely the PACE is designed to supply them the details they need without incrimination. So 'threaten' for the details again? They have given me a deadline of 7 days (Friday 12th) to comply. Or are they gonna say they didnt receive it??
So I am now @ Panic stations!
HELP!!
as always appreciated...
Mike
Maths For Fun And Insight
QUOTE (Mk1VR6 @ Mon, 8 May 2006 - 20:00) *
So I am now @ Panic stations!

My opinion is that you could send them a duplicate PACE statement by recorded delivery. Hopefully you've still got the NIP reference number, in which case that should be included in the PACE statement so that the scammers can match up the PACE statement to a NIP.

Don't panic, Mr Mainwaring! wink.gif
Mk1VR6
QUOTE (Maths For Fun And Insight @ Mon, 8 May 2006 - 20:26) *
QUOTE (Mk1VR6 @ Mon, 8 May 2006 - 20:00) *
So I am now @ Panic stations!

My opinion is that you could send them a duplicate PACE statement by recorded delivery. Hopefully you've still got the NIP reference number, in which case that should be included in the PACE statement so that the scammers can match up the PACE statement to a NIP.

Don't panic, Mr Mainwaring! wink.gif

ok Thats what I was thinking..........
should have orginal Pace letter in my PC where I copied & pasted the text into word.
so shall send that with cover note explaining duplicate one sent previously etc.
cheers Matey
Mike - in semi Panic mode only now! wink.gif
Mk1VR6
Hi all
well they were much quicker this time!
Sent a copy Nip as suggested.
Rec'd a letter as follows.....
Thankyou for your correspondence bla bla.
A paragraph outlining the nip & what it is for.
Asking me to fill it in & return it -for either a court heraing or conditional offer.
Final paragraph -
If you fail to accept the conditional offer or request a court heraing the matter will be referred to the magistrates court and yo can expect to recieve a summons in due course.
............
So what now?
ignore?
do they have a time limit on this?
I asked for the evidence some time ago & I was told it 'may' be possible to view it at a police station, trust I push for this now??
Thanks again all.
Mike
The Rookie
Sit back, watch telly and drink tea until you recieve any more from them, this may or may not be a summons for S172 or speeding or both!

Simon
Mk1VR6
ok
will do.
any further advice?
is there a time limit on this?
am I likely to incur any further costs?
do I chase up the 'evidence' now?
cheers all
Mike
andy_foster
They hav 6 months from the date of the alleged speeding offence to lay an information for a summons for speeding.
Humberside are very good at dating their informations a day or so before th time-out but not serving them until several weks after.

For 47 in a 40, if you'd most likely get 3 points and £60 fine.
Costs tend to be about £35 if you plead guilty, or £80+ if you fight.
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