Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: PLEASE HELP Received citation!
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
ltcolumbo
I've just arrived home from work on a Friday evening to a Citation from Stirling Court and am now having a breakdown. This was for a simple speeding offence with an NIP issued and completed and I don't understand why they're criminally prosecuting me. They've also included previous conviction from 2005!!!! and asking me if I plead guilty, I don't understand, what does a driving offence I committed over 10 years ago have to do with now? And why am I being asked to plead guilty when I was already prosecuted, found guilty and paid my fine??

I was caught speeding in Stirling back in December, I live in South east England, I was home visiting family. I was caught on a dual carriageway doing 87 mph in a 70 mph zone.

I received a NIP through the post, completed (late because I travel overseas with work), heard nothing, now this.

The complaint says:-

On 30 December 2014 a Notice of intended prosecution and requirements under section 172 of the Road traffic act 1988 was forwarded to registered keeper of the vehicle, namely ME.

On 27 January a reminder letter was sent to ME.

On 12 February a reply was received from accused establishing identy as the driver of the vehicle.

Accused was offered a Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty.
Accused accepted and failed to comply with the offer.

I don't understand this last bit, I didn't realise signing the NIP was accepting the offer, I didn't fail to comply, I wasn't contacted after I sent the NIP.

Then with regards to my 2005 conviction there's an attached sheet that says:

Notice of previous convictions applying to ME.
In the event of your being convicted of the charges in the complaint it is intended to place before the court the following previous convixrion(s) applying to you.

Then it lists the date (March 2005), court and place of offence which is Perth sheriff and Road traffic act section 3, and disposal which is fine and licence endorsed.it's then asking me to admit or not admit the previous convictions.

I don't know what to do. I'm having a breakdown. If I lose my licence I'm screwed, I'll lose my job, my family will be out on the street and I don't understand why they're doing this for a speeding offence and punishing me for something that happened over 10 years ago that I already paid for, why am I being punished for this again more than 10 years later.

I'm self employed so I can't take time off to go to court and I've got until 22nd May to reply.

I'm feeling suicidal right now, this is just hell, if they take my licence away my family will be better off if I'm dead.

I don't know what to do.
southpaw82
For 87 in a 70 you're not going to lose your licence. They're prosecuting you because you were breaking the law. I don't understand your bit about being convicted and paying your fine - are you talking about your offence in 2005? You're not being asked to plead guilty or not guilty in relation to your 2005 offence.
ltcolumbo
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 8 May 2015 - 16:52) *
For 87 in a 70 you're not going to lose your licence. They're prosecuting you because you were breaking the law. I don't understand your bit about being convicted and paying your fine - are you talking about your offence in 2005? You're not being asked to plead guilty or not guilty in relation to your 2005 offence.



It sounds like they're trying to use that offence to make the judge give me more points or ban me, how is it even relevant, it was over 10 years ago. I meant I was convicted and paid my fine for the 2005 offence so querying how I can be punished for that offence again which they seem to be attempting here. They said I was offered a Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty and I accepted then didn't comply, I don't understand this, I wasn't offered anything, I completed the NIP and heard nothing until this citation. It's interesting they list dates regarding issue of the NIP, but not with the COFP, because they never offered it.

I can't go to court in Scotland in May, I don't know if I should plead guilty or not because I'm not entirely sure what they're prosecuting me for, is it the original offence, not complying with the cofp or the offence in 2005 which they specifically ask me to tick and sign if I admit or do not admit the previous offence.
Jlc
Perhaps they didn't offer a CoFP or it was lost in the post.

The citation should say which offence(s) they are looking to prosecute.
ltcolumbo
QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 8 May 2015 - 17:03) *
Perhaps they didn't offer a CoFP or it was lost in the post.

The citation should say which offence(s) they are looking to prosecute.


Thanks for replying guys, really appreciate it. I'm having a nervous breakdown here, had a crap week, come home to this and now wondering why I bother.

If it was lost in the post couldn't they have just sent a reminder instead of going to court? Also why drag up the past, what's the purpose of presenting the 2005 conviction to the court? What are they looking to achieve with that? To show I broke the law and screwed up 10 years ago? I was a completely different person back then for goodness sake, what does it prove and what will the judge do with that information?

The citation says :-

The charge(s) against you are that:

On 25th December 2014 in A9, northbound..... you (my name) did drive a motor vehicle, (my vehicle) at a speed exceeding 70 miles per hour, said road being a length of dual carriageway road, namely, at a speed of an average of 87 miles per hour;
CONTRARY to the 70 miles per hour, 60 miles per hour and 50 miles per hour (Temporary speed limit) order 1977, as amended by article 1(1) of the 70 miles per hour, 60 miles per hour and 50 miles per hour (Temporary speed limit(continuation) order 1978, made in terms of Section 88 of the Road traffic regulation Act 1984 and Section 89 of said Act.
ltcolumbo
I should mention that it was 5am on Christmas day. No excuse for speeding any time, I know this, but it was early hours Christmas morning, I was desperate to get home to Aberdeen to see my family. I'd driven up overnight from Berkshire where I live. My mum's had a stroke and I pay for the house and for their keep, I work away all year, live alone, so yes, I was trying to get home for Xmas morning.

Now I'm likely going to lose my licence and the procurator fiscal is trying to use something I did over 10 years ago to screw me like I'm some sort of mad person with a licence that should be taken off the roads before I harm someone.

Hard not to take it personally or to feel Iike I'm being treated unfairly, I feel suicidal over this. If I lose my licence I lose my job and my parents are out on the street because I won't be able to afford the house any more and my mum's disabled after a stroke, it would kill her. Least if I died my life insurance would ensure they are okay.
southpaw82
If you were speeding on 25/12/14 then you may as well plead guilty to that. You should point out to the court (in writing) that no COFP was offered and suggest they sentence you to the same three points and £100 fine you would have received, though they don't have to.

I'm not sure what the issue is with confirming the offence from 2005 if the details are correct. They're not punishing you again for it.
ltcolumbo
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 8 May 2015 - 17:55) *
If you were speeding on 25/12/14 then you may as well plead guilty to that. You should point out to the court (in writing) that no COFP was offered and suggest they sentence you to the same three points and £100 fine you would have received, though they don't have to.

I'm not sure what the issue is with confirming the offence from 2005 if the details are correct. They're not punishing you again for it.


I guess I'm so upset because I don't understand what the 2005 conviction has to do with this offence. I was prosecuted for that, found guilty already, I paid my fine and suffered penalties, if they're not punishing me for it again then why even mention it? What is the PF hoping to achieve by presenting that to the Judge? It's a more serious offence plus it seems unfair to have a Judge consider that offence again.
Jlc
It's just driving history - the scots seem to work a bit different to E+W... Anecdotally they may issue a higher sentence if you are south of the border. Although, I believe they can also reoffer a CoFP. That speed is within the usual threshold to do so but they don't have to...

It should be 3 points at worst.
southpaw82
It's an antecedent - I once presented a defendant's antecedents, including a conviction for a broken headlamp where the fine was in £/s/d! It's relevant to sentencing but probably won't have much effect.
ltcolumbo
Thanks Jlc and Southpaw82, I'm feeling calmer about this now, perhaps my life isn't over biggrin.gif

So I'll reply and plead guilty to the speeding offence, explain the circumstances and apologise, say I didn't receive CoFP and can they please give me the 3 points and fine offered.

This might explain something bizarre that happened a couple of weeks ago. I live in SE England, my car and driving licence are registered here, car's insured here, even just received my road tax reminder at this address. However I own the house my parents live in, only thing there in my name is the house.

Dad said police were looking for me couple weeks ago. Dad explained I don't live there, and only visit when I can and that I lived down south. Dad asked what it was about and they said they had my "other" address in England, it's not important, just need to talk to me. Dad gave them my details, including mobile. But I haven't heard anything, maybe that was them following up the CoFP? If so aren't they required to contact me at my address? It was just really weird, then this.
southpaw82
They're not required to offer you a COFP at all.
ltcolumbo
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 8 May 2015 - 18:32) *
They're not required to offer you a COFP at all.

I don't understand?
The Rookie
No but according to his OP, they say they sent one, so it is worth stating this wasn't received and that if it had of been he would certainly have accepted it, that way they are more likely to er on the side of lenience.
ltcolumbo
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 8 May 2015 - 18:58) *
No but according to his OP, they say they sent one, so it is worth stating this wasn't received and that if it had of been he would certainly have accepted it, that way they are more likely to er on the side of lenience.


Gotcha, thanks. Yes they said:-

"Accused was offered a Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty.
Accused accepted and failed to comply with the offer"

The last statement confuses me, I dont know what they mean by me supposedly accepting and not complying. I never received or signed anything except the NIP naming myself as the driver.
southpaw82
QUOTE (ltcolumbo @ Fri, 8 May 2015 - 19:57) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 8 May 2015 - 18:32) *
They're not required to offer you a COFP at all.

I don't understand?

My intention was that any argument about what address they used (or didn't) is immaterial in so far as there is merit in "I didn't get a COFP so there!". It is relevant to an argument that you should recess COFP level penalty from the court, as I said earlier.
ltcolumbo
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 8 May 2015 - 19:16) *
QUOTE (ltcolumbo @ Fri, 8 May 2015 - 19:57) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 8 May 2015 - 18:32) *
They're not required to offer you a COFP at all.

I don't understand?

My intention was that any argument about what address they used (or didn't) is immaterial in so far as there is merit in "I didn't get a COFP so there!". It is relevant to an argument that you should recess COFP level penalty from the court, as I said earlier.


I must be retarded because I don't understand, I don't know what "recess COFP level penalty from the court" means.

Also my tone is not "i didn't get a COFP so there!", that is quite flippant and not my meaning at all.

I've no intention of arguing or challenging the court or being flippant about it, I'm merely going to state the facts as I understand them. They have said they offered a COFP and that I accepted bit did not comply, this is simply not true and they have no evidence of that because there is none. I'm not denying they sent the COFP, but I did not receive it and I queried them going to a house that I don't live in and not contacting me where I live to discuss the issue. They have my address and my phone number, but because I wasn't at my paarents where I don't live they don't follow up but instead initiate court proceedings.

PS Apologies for the awful spelling, I'm posting using my mobile phone and my sausage fingers make a complete balls of it!
southpaw82
Fat fingers here too... recess should be receive.

The point is, there's little mileage in going into a lengthy description of whether the police should have contacted you at this address or that address etc. simply say you didn't receive a COFP and would like to be sentenced at the same level. Or bore the court to death, up to you.
ltcolumbo
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 8 May 2015 - 19:33) *
Fat fingers here too... recess should be receive.

The point is, there's little mileage in going into a lengthy description of whether the police should have contacted you at this address or that address etc. simply say you didn't receive a COFP and would like to be sentenced at the same level. Or bore the court to death, up to you.


Ok got it now, eventually, thank you for being patient, thick head as well as sausage fingers. biggrin.gif

I have had mail problems with mail not being received and being delivered to wrong address. Have complaint emails to Royal Mail as well as couriers. Is it worthwhile telling them that? I guess they must hear "I never received it" quite a lot.
southpaw82
I think (and this is merely my opinion) that it would be worth telling them that if they don't seem to believe you when you say you never got the COFP. If the court believes you from the start then there's no need to bore them with details of why they should believe you.
Kickaha
I note that no dates are given for the COFP , or for the OPs acceptance of it.

Could it be that the original NIP incorporated the COFP, and the OP ticked the box accepting it but did not send licence or pay the fine.

maybe someone who has experience of the forms used in Scotland could help clarify?
The Rookie
Of not heard of Police Scotland using a combined NIP/S172/COFP, in fact looking at recent posts, if they are it's a very recent change and this case is obviously relatively old.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.