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sarahlhug82
Hi

I was hoping for some advice. I received an excess parking fine from a company called LPS on Monday 4th May. We were 19 minutes late back to the car on a trip to the Sand Dunes at Merthyr Mawr due to us having to change my young son's nappy before we left. When we got back to the car we found the ticket (we were one of many in the car park) and were shocked to see that for 19 minutes they were expecting an £85 fine or £50 if we pay within 14 days. This I feel is a very excessive amount of money for this error in judgement, money that we don't have to spare. I have taken some advice from friends, and all have said don't pay and ignore, however I am very unsure about doing this as there must be a way that they can force people to pay up or there would be no point issuing the tickets in the first place. The company is part of the BPS and nothing to do with the council or the police. We were late and we were at fault however £85/50 is a large amount of money to charge someone for a quiet carpark on a Bank Holiday Monday. The case can be appealed directly to them but this involves then disclosing personal details and I am sure will be rejected. Any advice as to what to do will be gratefully received. Many thanks!
PASTMYBEST
post up the document all pages redact personal information. Do not name the driver refer only to the keeper of the vehicle
sarahlhug82
Trying to upload but it won't let me!
Albert Ross
posting images

London Parking Solutions are an IPC company and any appeal ill likely be rejected and their Independant Appeal Service is not much better.

Do not imply who was driving we were late and we found the ticket is not enough to identify the driver. refer to the driver in the third person only.
usually the advice is to wait for the posted notice to keeper, and appeal from that.


Umkomaas
QUOTE (Albert Ross @ Thu, 7 May 2015 - 15:20) *
posting images

London Parking Solutions are an IPC company and any appeal ill likely be rejected and their Independant Appeal Service is not much better.

Do not imply who was driving we were late and we found the ticket is not enough to identify the driver. refer to the driver in the third person only.
usually the advice is to wait for the posted notice to keeper, and appeal from that.

There's also Llawnroc Parking Services (LPS) and Local Parking Security (LPS) - both BPA members. @OP - could you clarify which of the three already mentioned is the PPC chasing you?
emsgeorge
Thought an excess charge notice was one some councils use, the only recourse being magistrates court, as its a breach of the off street parking places order (or their variation of), not some private ticket.

We really need to see the ticket.
sarahlhug82
It's Local Parking Security Ltd. I will upload now, I need to reduce the pixels on the picture as it's too large. Many thanks!
sarahlhug82
I've been trying to add an attachment of the photo all night! Ive given up but the detail is below

Excess Charge Notice

Ref No
Vehicle Registration
Date of Issue
Time of Issue
Issued By
Location Code
Location
Vehicle Make
Colour of Vehicle

Issue Reason: 0003
Parking longer than period paid for

A parking charge of £85.00 is due within 28 days of the date of issue.

The reduced amount of £50.00 will be accepted if payment is received within 14 days of the date of this notice.

Failure to provide payment of the full amount within 28 days will result in further administrative costs.

Payment methods
Telephone: 08444740904
Use reference: REDACTED
Online Payment: www.LPSPAY.co.uk
By Post: Complete payment slip on the reverse of this notive and send with payment to the following address:
Local Parking Security Ltd
P.O. Box 6321
Warwick
CV34 9QB
Albert Ross
there was a link to posting images in my earlier post (with erroneous assumptions)
sarahlhug82


Thanks, should have paid more attention!
PASTMYBEST
This the place by any chance

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.482478,-3...1-1BxIw!2e0
sarahlhug82
yes that's the one!
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (sarahlhug82 @ Thu, 7 May 2015 - 22:16) *
yes that's the one!


Now the experts on PPC'S can have a look and see if they can find enough signage to form a contract
sarahlhug82
thank you, any help appreciated!
Albert Ross
Is there any appeal process.

Usual process is to ignore the windscreen ticket and wait for the Notice to keeper.
That will allow you to appeal as the keeper without identifying the driver.
If you appeal the ticket that you have then it would be reasonable to assume that the person appealing is the driver.
Once the driver is known then the Protections afforded in POFA are lost.
They [LPS] can not apply for the keeper details until after 28 days of placing the windscreen ticket but have until day 56 to get the notice to you (NTK)
emanresu
Find out who owns the car park too. They can cancel.

Is your baby less than 26 weeks? (Equality Act)
sarahlhug82
Little confused as to what to do now... Do I appeal directly to them therefore disclosing personal details or do I wait for the letter to come through from them demanding the payment?
The Rookie
If you are the registered keeper, wait.
nosferatu1001
QUOTE (sarahlhug82 @ Tue, 12 May 2015 - 13:25) *
Little confused as to what to do now... Do I appeal directly to them therefore disclosing personal details or do I wait for the letter to come through from them demanding the payment?

Also, contact who owns the car park. They can cancel. Equalities Act *requirement* for a reasonable adjustment (such as more time) would also apply if your baby is under 26 weeks
sarahlhug82
How do I find out who owns the car park? Will it be registered somewhere? Little boy is 1 so not a tiny baby.
sarahlhug82
I am considering just paying this charge as I don't feel that any appeal would win and we will end up paying the charges anyway. The reasons for this being:

1) We were 19 minutes late back to the car - our fault.
2) There was sufficient signage in the car park - it was just our error being late back due to taking care of our son
3) They have pictures of the signage on the account (I went on to have a look)

I'm just not sure we have grounds for an appeal other than the fact that the charge is excessive for the losses received (£50/£85)

Today is the last day we can pay the reduced amount.

Can anyone advise on the likelihood of us getting anywhere with this?

I'm also nervous of the consequences - we don't have much money and two children to consider.

Many thanks
nosferatu1001
The appeals on here are usually successful, unless it's IAS.

Even with IAS, you don't have to pay anything, until they issue court papers, turn up, and then Actually win.

All of this is months and months away.
emanresu
QUOTE
Can anyone advise on the likelihood of us getting anywhere with this?


Its the other way around. Can LPS get anywhere with this? Highly unlikely. They have to prove a) the signs were clear b) they had a contract and c) the contract provides for the ability to take any action other than sending out letters.

You will get a lot of letters and then nothing as it is unlikely they have the authority to do anything. But you would know this if you found out who owned/leased the car park.
sarahlhug82
Apparently it's owned privately by a family who employ LPS to monitor the parking. Does this make a difference?
ostell
So LPS are employed to monitor the parking and don't own the land. Therefore LPS do not have the legal standing to take you to court. They may even not have the right to issue parking tickets.
sarahlhug82
Okay so I haven't paid the reduced fee and today was the deadline, I'm going to appeal. A friend of the family has advised me that I should appeal to LPS now via their appeal email address rather than waiting for the letter through the post and then appealing. What are the advantages to waiting and why have the people on this forum suggested this is the best thing to do? I understand that by emailing them an appeal now they will have my information - but won't they get that anyway off the DVLA and then when I appeal to them for a POPLA code? Does it make any difference if I wait?
Albert Ross
If you appeal now then you are the Driver that contracted with LPS.
If you appeal after you receive the letter to the keeper then you may not be that driver that contracted with LPS.
If LPS do not follow the ACT [POFA 2012] to the letter, then they cannot enforce the contract by claiming liability from the keeper.

So appeal as the keeper when the letter arrives:
That the signs are inadequate and do not form a contract
that the amount (if it is found to form a contract) is unconscionable and extortionate and bears no relation to a fine issued by a statutory undertaking both before and after discounts apply.
That they are not the landowners and have no authority to contract with the motorist.

Does the car park belong to the castle?
Barry S
Is there any mileage in their misuse of the term "Excess Charge Notice", given that has a specific meaning under RTRA 1984?
nosferatu1001
Its a breahc of thre BPA CoP to use misleading language, and it is arguably Fraud as well, as it is attempting to gain money through misrepresentation of authority
sarahlhug82
Okay so I didn't pay the reduced amount and didn't contact them. Now I have had the 'Notice to Keeper' letter through to my house which advises to appeal directly to them in the first instance within 28 days of issue which was 10th June. They state to include; name and address of driver, vehicle registration and reference no. and they will reply within 14 days. Could someone please talk me through what details I should and should not include in the appeal letter? I understand that this is likely to be rejected however is there a template I can use?

Many thanks in advance
nosferatu1001
As you will have seen by looking round this forum int he meantime, there is a LOT of information here.

You do NOT name the driver. In fact, if they are *requiring* you to do so, this is a breach of the code of practice, and you should complain.
sarahlhug82
It says 'failure to provide driver details or payment of the full amount of £85 within the 28 days of this notice will result in your case being passed to a debt recovery agency where the outstanding charge will increase and further administrative costs may be incurred. What do I put in the appeal letter?
ostell
How about posting up the letter so that all can read? With the personal details removed.
nosferatu1001
And, in case it wasnt clear - as you will have found out by reading around this forum, you are NOT REQUIRED TO NAME THE DRIVER. You ONLY name the driver IF it will grant some advantage to you.

They can write a whole load of tosh in letters. Doesnt mean it is true.
cabbyman
Go back to post #27 and draft your appeal to them based upon what Albert has said. Post it here for fine tuning. It's important that you do some work on this to gain some understanding of the issues. Pure regurgitation of a template that you don't understand could lead you to problems further down the road.
The Rookie
QUOTE (sarahlhug82 @ Mon, 15 Jun 2015 - 14:49) *
It says 'failure to provide driver details or payment of the full amount of £85 within the 28 days of this notice will result in your case being passed to a debt recovery agency where the outstanding charge will increase and further administrative costs may be incurred.

So they pass it to someone else whop can only write more scary letters, they can add whatever admin charge they like, it would be for a court to decide if they were justified in any way, as DRA's get paid a percentage of any income they generate, the most they could claim would be that percentage which will be a lot less that the scary number they dream up.

You are treating these like a serious company and not semi-legal scamming (which is what it is).
sarahlhug82

Dennis Basher
Our company is currently dealing with a speculative invoice from LPS - we received their NtK about 3 weeks ago and we will be sending off our challenge (as keeper) to LPS tomorrow. One of the key points of our challenge is based upon the many reasons why LPS's NtK does not comply with POFA 2012.

The wording of your NtK is the same as ours and so long as you appeal as keeper and don't provide LPS with details of the driver, non-compliance with POFA 2012 will be one of your strongest appeal points too.

Don't be distracted by the official-looking Declaration of Owner / Driver; this is a red herring and is designed to trick the keeper into revealing the driver's details. You have no obligation to complete it.

Of course, the Payment Slip is also a red herring - you'll have no need to complete that either!
sarahlhug82
How do you appeal as keeper then and not make it seem as though you are admitting being the driver? Do you have to actually state in the letter you are appealing as the vehicle keeper? How are you wording your appeal? Thanks so much for the info!
cabbyman
Draft a letter and post it on here for fine tuning. It's better that you have a go yourself and try to get your head around some of the issues than relying on someone else to do the work for you.
Dennis Basher
Something along these lines would do as an introduction to your challenge letter.

Dear Sir,

Parking Charge Notice 01234567: Vehicle Registration AA11AAA

I refer to the above-detailed Parking Charge Notice (“PCN”) dated [ ] issued by Local Parking Security Limited (“LPS”) to me as a Notice to Keeper (“NTK”) in respect of an alleged breach of Parking Terms and Conditions at [ ] on [ ].
I confirm that I am the keeper of this vehicle for the purpose of the corresponding definition under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA”) and I write to formally challenge this PCN, setting out below why the charge is not valid.

This will then lead you into your various appeal points. At this stage, you don't need to be too specific with the details of these points; LPS are likely to reject your appeal regardless of what you say and so you can keep the really detailed stuff for when you escalate the matter to POPLA.

With regards to the NTK's non-compliance with POFA, you can just say something like:

In order to be able to be able to invoke Keeper liability, LPS’s NTK had to comply with the strict requirements of POFA. However, there are a number of reasons why LPS’s NTK did not comply; I suggest that you read carefully through the details of Paragraph 8 of Schedule 4 of POFA to understand why.



sarahlhug82
Thank you very much, I will have a go at drafting a letter.
sarahlhug82
Thanks for your help so far this is a first draft of our appeal letter to LPS. Any comments would be gratefully received.

Local Parking Security Ltd
PO Box 6321
Warwick
CV34 9QB

1 Annoyed Road,
Crosstown,
Crazyshire
GE7 83NT

16th June 2015

Dear Sir / Ma’am

Parking Charge Notice 12345678 VRN XXXX XXX

I refer to the above detailed Parking Charge Notice (“PCN”) dated 10th June 2015 issued by Local Parking Security Limited (“LPS”) to me as a Notice to Keeper (“NTK”) in respect of an alleged breach of Parking Terms and Conditions at Candleston Car Park, Merthyr Mawr on Xth May 2015.

I confirm that I am the keeper of this vehicle for the purpose of the corresponding definition under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA”) and I write to formally challenge this PCN, setting out below why the charge is not valid.

1. The signs are inadequate and do not form a contract. This can be illustrated by examining the photographs taken by LPS’s agent to support the issue of the PCN. The images of the vehicle cover a 270° field of view within which no signs can be identified. In addition the time the latest image of the vehicle was taken was a o’clock, the images of the signs were recorded at d and e o’clock, this bc minute difference indicates that the frequency and positioning of the signs are inadequate.

2. The amount (if it is found to form a contract) is unconscionable and extortionate (£85 before discount and £50 after) and bears no relation to any fine issued by a statutory undertaking neither before or after discounts apply.

3. The issuers LPS are not the landowners and have no authority to contract with the motorist.

4. In order to be able to be able to invoke Keeper liability, LPS’s NTK had to comply with the strict requirements of POFA. However, there are a number of reasons why LPS’s NTK did not comply; I suggest that you read carefully through the details of Paragraph 8 of Schedule 4 of POFA to understand why.

This letter constitutes my formal appeal regarding the PCN. I intend to escalate the matter to Parking On Private Land Appeals (“POPLA”) if the above justification is not considered and resolve the PCN.

Yours sincerely
Jlc
QUOTE (sarahlhug82 @ Wed, 17 Jun 2015 - 14:10) *
2. The amount (if it is found to form a contract) is unconscionable and extortionate extravagant

cabbyman
QUOTE (sarahlhug82 @ Wed, 17 Jun 2015 - 14:10) *
This letter constitutes my formal appeal regarding the PCN. Should you fail to cancel this invoice, I require the necessary POPLA code in order that I may escalate the matter to Parking On Private Land Appeals (“POPLA”).

Yours sincerely

sarahlhug82
Hello lovely people!

As predicted my appeal to LPS was rejected within 48 hours of sending the letter we had this reply:

"Thank you for your appeal against the parking charge notice issued by us to you on 4th May 2015. Having carefully considered the evidence provided by you we regret your appeal has been unsuccessful for the following reasons:

- Parking longer than the period paid for

You now have a number of options:

1) Pay the parking charge Notice at the reduced amount of £50 within 14 days
2) Make an appeal to POPLA by making your appeal online or completing the enclosed form.
3) If you choose to do nothing we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via our debt recovery procedures and may proceed with court action against you

Please note you have 28 days from the date of this email to make your appeal to POPLA."


They have enclosed a POPLA appeals form to complete but I will do it online.

How do I now proceed? Do I need to edit my appeals letter and make a more detailed appeal?

I am a little worried as I have seen a number of people on this forum have had appeals rejected recently and wonder if I should just give in and pay if I'm going to lose my appeal anyway?

Any advice gratefully received!! :-) Many Thanks!
SchoolRunMum
Are you saying people have lost POPLA appeals - not that I've seen but then I haven't posted here for a while as I've been busy. No-one should currently be losing any well-written POPLA appeal seeing as the Lead Adjudicator has adjourned them all until November if the appeal points in the Barry Beavis case are the only matters left to consider on the face of it. In other words if a person says 'no GPEOL' (as normal in a POPLA appeal) and LPS say 'Yep but we don't care, look at the Beavis case' then the case is stayed if there's nothing else to decide it in favour of the motorist.

None are currently lost - certainly they should not be! If anyone has, they've either appealed badly or been up against a landowning PPC with a good line in 'this is a contractual fee for parking'.

So Google 'POPLA LPS' and look for examples of wording used by posters on forums within the last year - but make sure it's the right LPS as there are two.

You do NOT fill in the form, as you say, do it online once you've researched some examples and posted your draft here for comments. If you get this bit right, a keeper can't lose:

QUOTE
In order to be able to be able to invoke Keeper liability, LPS’s NTK had to comply with the strict requirements of POFA. However, there are a number of reasons why LPS’s NTK did not comply; I suggest that you read carefully through the details of Paragraph 8 of Schedule 4 of POFA to understand why.


Make sure you also have 'no GPEOL' and 'no landowner authority' as well as anything about the signage without talking about who was driving.
nosferatu1001
Can I ask which threads you have seen where POPLA have rejected? I've not seen any, just usual IAS rubbish...

You

a) look for good appeals on here
b) edit to match your circumstances exactly. Clarify anything you are unsure of
c) post here for critique

but before ALL of that, go to the parking cowboys website and check your POPLA code, to see EXACTLY how long you have

Even if you lose at POPLA you dont have to pay. It is still your choice. the decision has no power over you.
Dennis Basher
It's of no real surprise that LPS rejected your appeal. However, you now have a great opportunity to kill this off once and for all at the POPLA stage. Don't forget to stay in "keeper mode" in order to take advantage of LPS' failure to comply with POFA 2012.

You can now go into more detail on this point for POPLA's benefit. With regard to our company's recent challenge to LPS, I had drafted up the following paragraph to include in our POPLA appeal:

The Operator’s Notice to Keeper ("NTK") did not comply with Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ("POFA")

In order to be able to be able to invoke Keeper liability, the Operator’s NTK had to comply with the strict requirements of Schedule 4 of POFA; I set out below a non-exhaustive list of reasons why it failed to do so.

• Contrary to the requirement of Schedule 4, Paragraph 8 (2) (a), the NTK did not specify a period of parking to which the notice related; it merely stated a discrete date and time of issue.
• Contrary to the requirement of Schedule 4, Paragraph 8 (2) (b), the NTK did not inform the keeper that the driver is required to pay parking charges in respect of the specified period of parking and that the parking charges have not been paid in full.
• Contrary to the requirement of Schedule 4, Paragraph 8 (2) (e), the NTK did not contain a statement that the creditor did not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver, inviting the keeper (i) to pay the unpaid parking charges; or (ii) if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver.
• Contrary to the requirement of Schedule 4, Paragraph 8 (2) (f), the NTK did not contain a statement warning the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given, (i) the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified has not been paid in full, and (ii) the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver, the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under Schedule 4 of POFA are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid.
• Contrary to the requirement of Schedule 4, Paragraph 8 (2) (h), the NTK did not identify the creditor and specify how and to whom payment or notification to the creditor may be made.

Consequently, the Operator has forfeited any right to utilise POFA to hold the vehicle's keeper liable for this charge.


As it turned out, we didn't need to use it - LPS cancelled our charge within two days of receiving our initial challenge and didn't even bother trying to escalate to POPLA. smile.gif

Although I'm pretty sure that your NTK is of exactly the same format as the one we received, you may wish to cross check the list of reasons why the NTK didn't comply with POFA 2012.

bidderman1969
QUOTE (Dennis Basher @ Mon, 6 Jul 2015 - 22:57) *
It's of no real surprise that LPS rejected your appeal. However, you now have a great opportunity to kill this off once and for all at the POPLA stage. Don't forget to stay in "keeper mode" in order to take advantage of LPS' failure to comply with POFA 2012.

You can now go into more detail on this point for POPLA's benefit. With regard to our company's recent challenge to LPS, I had drafted up the following paragraph to include in our POPLA appeal:

The Operator’s Notice to Keeper ("NTK") did not comply with Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ("POFA")

In order to be able to be able to invoke Keeper liability, the Operator’s NTK had to comply with the strict requirements of Schedule 4 of POFA; I set out below a non-exhaustive list of reasons why it failed to do so.

• Contrary to the requirement of Schedule 4, Paragraph 8 (2) (a), the NTK did not specify a period of parking to which the notice related; it merely stated a discrete date and time of issue.
• Contrary to the requirement of Schedule 4, Paragraph 8 (2) (b), the NTK did not inform the keeper that the driver is required to pay parking charges in respect of the specified period of parking and that the parking charges have not been paid in full.
• Contrary to the requirement of Schedule 4, Paragraph 8 (2) (e), the NTK did not contain a statement that the creditor did not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver, inviting the keeper (i) to pay the unpaid parking charges; or (ii) if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver.
• Contrary to the requirement of Schedule 4, Paragraph 8 (2) (f), the NTK did not contain a statement warning the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given, (i) the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified has not been paid in full, and (ii) the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver, the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under Schedule 4 of POFA are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid.
• Contrary to the requirement of Schedule 4, Paragraph 8 (2) (h), the NTK did not identify the creditor and specify how and to whom payment or notification to the creditor may be made.

Consequently, the Operator has forfeited any right to utilise POFA to hold the vehicle's keeper liable for this charge.


As it turned out, we didn't need to use it - LPS cancelled our charge within two days of receiving our initial challenge and didn't even bother trying to escalate to POPLA. smile.gif

Although I'm pretty sure that your NTK is of exactly the same format as the one we received, you may wish to cross check the list of reasons why the NTK didn't comply with POFA 2012.


that is a brilliant reply
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