Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: [NIP Wizard] Is my nip time barred?
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
dav88uk
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - January 2015
Date of the NIP: - 16 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 19 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - Wigmore lane, Luton, Bedfordshire
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I was unaware of anything until I received this letter in the post

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - No
Was there a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival? - No

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The first NIP to the Registered Keeper must arrive within 14 days unless there is a valid reason why that was not possible, for example a recent change of details.

    This link will take you to the advice provided by the RAC's legal team.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Mon, 02 Mar 2015 21:42:38 +0000
peterguk
What is the DOCREF DATE on your V5C?

It is almost unheard of for an NIP to be issued out of time for no valid reason.
BaggieBoy
Usual questions..have you recently bought the vehicle?...recently moved?...

Unlikely they would have sent the first NIP after 16 days, almost certainly the first NIP went somewhere first.
Jlc
Indeed, as its dated outside the 14 days it's likely it went somewhere else first.

What's the alleged speed and limit?
dav88uk
QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 2 Mar 2015 - 23:41) *
Indeed, as its dated outside the 14 days it's likely it went somewhere else first.

What's the alleged speed and limit?


Thanks for your replies, I am going to sound like a real idiot now!
I have never had a speeding fine before and just assumed what I received was an nip, but I am not totally sure.
The letter I received says I have 2 options available to me 1) Accept the conditional offer of a fixed penalty. or 2) Request a court hearing.
It states date and time of offence but no mention of my actual speed, just says exceeded 30mph on a restricted road
The car was purchased from new in December around the 22nd, could this be the reason for the delay?
Thanks in advance
peterguk
Does it not ask to confirm who was driving?

Yes the purchase is likely to be reason for delay, but as already requested, what is DOCREF DATE on V5? And offence date?
The Rookie
That's is a NIP by the sounds of it, some issue a conditional offer of a fixed penalty on the same piece of paper, it doesn't have to state the alleged speed.

What is key is the date of the alleged offence compared to the DOCREF DATE on the registration document which indicates when the DVLA put your updated details on the system, if the date is after the offence then the Police's initial enquiry would have provided the old address and you have no '14 day' defence
dav88uk
Hi,,
Thanks again, I am sorry I missed out the DOCREF date this is 19/12/2014
Does that help my case?


QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 3 Mar 2015 - 00:17) *
Does it not ask to confirm who was driving?

Yes the purchase is likely to be reason for delay, but as already requested, what is DOCREF DATE on V5? And offence date?


Also date of offence was 11/01/2015
The Rookie
That can't be the DOCREF date as it's before you bought the car - unless you bought it new and it was registered to you before you bought it?

We need the DOCREF date on page 2 which indicates when the DVLA updated the details.
Jlc
At the time the DVLA was queried it is likely that no keeper details were returned. This, on the face of it, may explain the 'late' delivery of the 1st NIP (if indeed it is the 1st).

As another regular member often points out is the lack of DVLA records sufficient if other avenues are available? For example querying the insurance records?

Regardless, the s172 (name the driver) request is valid and must be responded to accordingly.
The Rookie
QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 3 Mar 2015 - 10:09) *
At the time the DVLA was queried it is likely that no keeper details were returned.

Erm, you may want to check the dates again, docref date given* is a long time before the alleged offence date!

*Not sure I trust the date given though.
Jlc
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 3 Mar 2015 - 10:36) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 3 Mar 2015 - 10:09) *
At the time the DVLA was queried it is likely that no keeper details were returned.

Erm, you may want to check the dates again, docref date given* is a long time before the alleged offence date!

*Not sure I trust the date given though.

Yes, saw that... Of course, if the details where correct at the time of the query then it looks like it may be a late NIP but they will know about the 14 days as much as anyone else...

I suspect the date given is when the ownership started, not when the DVLA had their records in order. (This usually takes 2-4 weeks)
dav88uk
Hi again, car was bought from new date on v5 was registered date 19/12/2014, picked car up on 22/12/2014, offence committed 11/01/2015, nip dated 27/01/2015 and I received it 30/01/2015.
Hope this helps
The Rookie
What was the DOCREF date, registration date (which is backdated to the date provided) is TOTALLY irrelevant.....it is so unlikely that that is the first NIP you MUST be 100% sure of your case or it will get painful and expensive if you fight it and then find out you got it wrong.
Jlc
On the inside of the V5C there's a section '4 Vehicle Details'.

If you look right at the bottom of that page there's text 'Doc Ref No'. It will be a series of numbers and then a DD MM YY date.

What's this date?
dav88uk
Ok Thanks for that, I am at work and v5 is at home, just asked son to send me picture of section 4 so will be able to say 100% then!
I really don't want to follow this up if there is no reason to, can afford neither the time nor expense so your help is greatly appreciated, and your patience
cheers
Jlc
Ok, it's not actually section 4 but right at the bottom of the page...

It is most likely the DVLA updated the records after the query so they seem to have an 'excuse' for the late NIP (if it is). However, as I hinted above could they have made other lines of enquiry? (Frankly, that might be quite a fight versus accepting the fixed penalty)

Just for reference the Act (Section 2 Road Traffic Offenders) reads:

QUOTE
(3)Failure to comply with the requirement of section 1(1) of this Act is not a bar to the conviction of the accused in a case where the court is satisfied—
(a)that neither the name and address of the accused nor the name and address of the registered keeper, if any, could with reasonable diligence have been ascertained in time for a summons or, as the case may be, a complaint to be served or for a notice to be served or sent in compliance with the requirement, or
(b)that the accused by his own conduct contributed to the failure.


Where 1(1) is basically the 14 day part.
dav88uk
QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 3 Mar 2015 - 11:22) *
On the inside of the V5C there's a section '4 Vehicle Details'.

If you look right at the bottom of that page there's text 'Doc Ref No'. It will be a series of numbers and then a DD MM YY date.

What's this date?

Evening all. Son couldn't find the v5 this afternoon but I am home now and the date is as I said
Bottom of page Doc Ref. No 4*** *** **** date 19/12/14
The only other thing I have noticed that the postcode is wrong on the v5, but correct on the nip?
Logician
QUOTE (dav88uk @ Tue, 3 Mar 2015 - 19:25) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 3 Mar 2015 - 11:22) *
On the inside of the V5C there's a section '4 Vehicle Details'. If you look right at the bottom of that page there's text 'Doc Ref No'. It will be a series of numbers and then a DD MM YY date. What's this date?
Evening all. Son couldn't find the v5 this afternoon but I am home now and the date is as I said Bottom of page Doc Ref. No 4*** *** **** date 19/12/14 The only other thing I have noticed that the postcode is wrong on the v5, but correct on the nip?


So it looks as though the NIP with the wrong postcode may have been returned as undeliverable and then the address checked. As the postcode is wrong on the V5C, which it is your responsibility to have correct, you have contributed to the delay and that means a late NIP defence is not available.

Hellfire8
QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 3 Mar 2015 - 21:41) *
QUOTE (dav88uk @ Tue, 3 Mar 2015 - 19:25) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 3 Mar 2015 - 11:22) *
On the inside of the V5C there's a section '4 Vehicle Details'. If you look right at the bottom of that page there's text 'Doc Ref No'. It will be a series of numbers and then a DD MM YY date. What's this date?
Evening all. Son couldn't find the v5 this afternoon but I am home now and the date is as I said Bottom of page Doc Ref. No 4*** *** **** date 19/12/14 The only other thing I have noticed that the postcode is wrong on the v5, but correct on the nip?


So it looks as though the NIP with the wrong postcode may have been returned as undeliverable and then the address checked. As the postcode is wrong on the V5C, which it is your responsibility to have correct, you have contributed to the delay and that means a late NIP defence is not available.


Is it though? As I thought a Postcode is not required for post to be delivered, it just makes it eaiser? I've sent letters with no postcode and they've been received.
Jlc
QUOTE (Hellfire8 @ Wed, 4 Mar 2015 - 09:04) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 3 Mar 2015 - 21:41) *

So it looks as though the NIP with the wrong postcode may have been returned as undeliverable and then the address checked. As the postcode is wrong on the V5C, which it is your responsibility to have correct, you have contributed to the delay and that means a late NIP defence is not available.

Is it though? As I thought a Postcode is not required for post to be delivered, it just makes it eaiser? I've sent letters with no postcode and they've been received.

It's a supposition but does seem plausible it could delay the NIP. Regardless, the s172 request is valid now its arrived...

One might want to point out to them (when returning the s172) that the NIP is dated after 14 days and appears to have been served outside the necessary timeframe... They may either explain, ignore or suggest the matter is heard at court...
Logician
QUOTE (Hellfire8 @ Wed, 4 Mar 2015 - 09:04) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 3 Mar 2015 - 21:41) *
QUOTE (dav88uk @ Tue, 3 Mar 2015 - 19:25) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 3 Mar 2015 - 11:22) *
On the inside of the V5C there's a section '4 Vehicle Details'. If you look right at the bottom of that page there's text 'Doc Ref No'. It will be a series of numbers and then a DD MM YY date. What's this date?
Evening all. Son couldn't find the v5 this afternoon but I am home now and the date is as I said Bottom of page Doc Ref. No 4*** *** **** date 19/12/14 The only other thing I have noticed that the postcode is wrong on the v5, but correct on the nip?
So it looks as though the NIP with the wrong postcode may have been returned as undeliverable and then the address checked. As the postcode is wrong on the V5C, which it is your responsibility to have correct, you have contributed to the delay and that means a late NIP defence is not available.
Is it though? As I thought a Postcode is not required for post to be delivered, it just makes it eaiser? I've sent letters with no postcode and they've been received.


That is correct, a letter without a postcode will usually be delivered, but in this instance a letter using the V5C address would have a postcode so Royal Mail would presumably use that without checking the full address. As the NIP that did arrive had the correct postcode, someone has checked it and I cannot believe that is done as a routine.

Sparxy
QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 4 Mar 2015 - 09:18) *
QUOTE (Hellfire8 @ Wed, 4 Mar 2015 - 09:04) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 3 Mar 2015 - 21:41) *

So it looks as though the NIP with the wrong postcode may have been returned as undeliverable and then the address checked. As the postcode is wrong on the V5C, which it is your responsibility to have correct, you have contributed to the delay and that means a late NIP defence is not available.

Is it though? As I thought a Postcode is not required for post to be delivered, it just makes it eaiser? I've sent letters with no postcode and they've been received.

It's a supposition but does seem plausible it could delay the NIP. Regardless, the s172 request is valid now its arrived...

One might want to point out to them (when returning the s172) that the NIP is dated after 14 days and appears to have been served outside the necessary timeframe... They may either explain, ignore or suggest the matter is heard at court...


I suppose a can of worms would be opened if a timeout happened because of an incorrect postcode.... biggrin.gif
TonyS
QUOTE (Sparxy @ Thu, 5 Mar 2015 - 18:14) *
I suppose a can of worms would be opened if a timeout happened because of an incorrect postcode.... biggrin.gif

What are you thinking .. they might try and prosecute for incorrect details on V5?
peterguk
QUOTE (Sparxy @ Thu, 5 Mar 2015 - 18:14) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 4 Mar 2015 - 09:18) *
QUOTE (Hellfire8 @ Wed, 4 Mar 2015 - 09:04) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 3 Mar 2015 - 21:41) *

So it looks as though the NIP with the wrong postcode may have been returned as undeliverable and then the address checked. As the postcode is wrong on the V5C, which it is your responsibility to have correct, you have contributed to the delay and that means a late NIP defence is not available.

Is it though? As I thought a Postcode is not required for post to be delivered, it just makes it eaiser? I've sent letters with no postcode and they've been received.

It's a supposition but does seem plausible it could delay the NIP. Regardless, the s172 request is valid now its arrived...

One might want to point out to them (when returning the s172) that the NIP is dated after 14 days and appears to have been served outside the necessary timeframe... They may either explain, ignore or suggest the matter is heard at court...


I suppose a can of worms would be opened if a timeout happened because of an incorrect postcode.... biggrin.gif


Legislation requires the letter to be "correctly addressed". Incorrect postcode would seem to fall at the first hurdle.
Logician
s.2(3) RTOA 1988:

(3)

Failure to comply with the requirement of section 1(1) of this Act is not a bar to the conviction of the accused in a case where the court is satisfied—
.(a) .....................
.(b) that the accused by his own conduct contributed to the failure.

The OP failed to correct the erroneous postcode on the V5C he had for the vehicle, he had an obligation to ensure the DVLA had his correct address which e failed to discharge, so although I think that provision is aimed at those who actively try not to be found, I think he may be caught by s.2(3)(b)
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.