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Full Version: I am sure it was a 40 limit. Caught 36 in a 30
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Vin
I was travelling back early from East Grinstead in the early hours. No traffic on the road. Some stretches were various roads and speeds. I kept to the limits. I noticed a 40 and kept to that. As i went past the camera it flashed. Now i have a nip(36). The road mentioned was A22 London Road, J/W Halsford Green East Grinstead,
Has anyone else had this issue or know if this is correct?
thanks
AFCNEAL
You can check the TRO for that stretch of road and/or ask for an image of the offence to see exactly where you were caught?

It looks to have a system of street lights?............
Jlc
It's a restricted road as per the system of streetlighting. I presume this camera?

There is a non-mandatory speed camera sign showing 30 in the opposite direction. One presumes you missed the 30 terminal signs when entering the limit, but regardless the system of streetlighting would make it restricted unless signposted otherwise.

Thinking you were in a 40 limit is no defence.
The Rookie
It used to be a 40
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.134984,-0...q321sGA!2e0
But not anymore
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.135068,-0...8Oqg_-A!2e0

I went a long way back up the London road from the camera, not a single repeater indicating any speed limit other than that indicated by the street lighting, so it's signed as a 30, it's just whether the TRO making it a 30 from the original 40 is correct I guess.
Vin
Thanks for your replys. so it is a mistake on my part?
I am not sure what you mean by TRO?

Thanks again
Jlc
QUOTE (Vin @ Thu, 12 Feb 2015 - 18:40) *
so it is a mistake on my part?
It appears to be.

QUOTE (Vin @ Thu, 12 Feb 2015 - 18:40) *
I am not sure what you mean by TRO?
Traffic Regulation Order - basically the document that sets the legal limit but one not required for a restricted limit. One presumes the 40mph one was removed.
The Rookie
A TRO isn't needed for a restricted road to be a 30 (restricted means it has a system of street lighting), but it will have needed a TRO to make it the 40 it was and thus another order will have been needed to make it back into a 30.

Why did you think it was a 40? There is nothing that suggests it as far as I can see.
Jlc
I've just twigged that the person caught doing 128mph on this road may have been this camera...
Vin
I think it is worth me going back there to see the road layout. from memory i was careful to note the speed limits and was shocked as i passed it. i was wondering if many people were caught out by this stretch of road.
The Rookie
Looking at GSV there is nothing that says it was a 40, there are no repeaters for well over a mile of the A22 (as far as I went) but lots of street lighting hat is far from obscure, so I really don't know what made you think it was a 40, I can't see anything which would catch people out unless they don't understand speed limits and their signage.
Vin
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - January 2015
Date of the NIP: - 34 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 39 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - J/W Halsford Green east grinstead united kingdom
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Second
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 3
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I was travelling in the early hours, 03:24 keeping to the speed limit. Watching the signs which showed 40. I came across a speed camera and looked at my speedo which showed 40. The camera flashed. I wondered why as I had kept to the limit. I did not worry but now have the nip. I am upset the signs are misleading and wonder if this has caught any one else out

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 11:52:29 +0000
Logician
QUOTE
I am upset the signs are misleading and wonder if this has caught any one else out


Tell us which signs you think are misleading
Jlc
More importantly, have you named the driver yet? Your first post (where you had the NIP) was around 4 weeks ago...

Didn't the Rookie establish it was a 30? It seems you missed the 30mph terminal signs but even so being in a restricted limit without repeaters to the contrary make it 30mph and you will have no defence.
andy_foster
QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 11 Mar 2015 - 12:12) *
Didn't the Rookie establish it was a 30? It seems you missed the 30mph terminal signs but even so being in a restricted limit without repeaters to the contrary make it 30mph and you will have no defence.


The Rookie established that GSV said it was a 30. He also established that it was previously a 40 (which would have required a TRO) and would therefore need a valid TRO to make it a 30 limit.
Whilst it is a bit of a long shot, it may well be worth the OP obtaining a copy of the TRO - although I suspect that the OP may need a bit of pointing in the right direction to do so.
Jlc
Yup, contact the council to obtain a copy of any relevant Traffic Regulation Orders.

...but complying with the s172 request is paramount.
Vin


thanks for all your help so far
Vin
So I phoned sussex county council after three different people. I managed to speak to some one who helped. They suggested i speak to SSRP and explain about the tro. the guy i spoke to mentioned it had only been inforced a couple of years and is new. was a 40 reduced to a 30 with street lamps. he doubts there is anyting wrong with it. he suggested to call the sussex safer roads partnership.

what shall I say that I am challenging the nip? do i quote my notice number to them?
Spenny
QUOTE (Vin @ Wed, 11 Mar 2015 - 15:34) *
So I phoned sussex county council after three different people. I managed to speak to some one who helped. They suggested i speak to SSRP and explain about the tro. the guy i spoke to mentioned it had only been inforced a couple of years and is new. was a 40 reduced to a 30 with street lamps. he doubts there is anyting wrong with it. he suggested to call the sussex safer roads partnership.

what shall I say that I am challenging the nip? do i quote my notice number to them?

I think you have ended up with the wrong conversation. The idea is that you get sight of the TRO which is a public document that you have the right to see. You can then inspect it to ensure that it is correct - that it actually exists at all, that it covers the place you were stopped and is technically correct (which this forum could advise on).

Friendly staff email copies of such things, unfriendly ones might make you trudge into the council offices to inspect it. They have to show it to you. That is nothing to do with the camera partnership and they would simply turn around and say that if you want to defend you go to court.
Logician
You need to speak to the Highways Dept.
BaggieBoy
You can't challenge a NIP. You either accept the offer of a course/fixed penalty or you take it to court and plead not guilty.
Jlc
...for the sake of repeating myself, has the s172 (driver nomination) been completed? If not, the underlying offence becomes mostly irrelevant if a different offence is committed...

The council should be able to (e)mail the relevant TRO or make it available for inspection. (As noted, it is a public document)

QUOTE (Vin @ Wed, 11 Mar 2015 - 15:34) *
he suggested to call the sussex safer roads partnership.
...who won't be able to provide the TRO.

QUOTE (Vin @ Wed, 11 Mar 2015 - 15:34) *
what shall I say that I am challenging the nip? do i quote my notice number to them?
You can't challenge a notice. You have to go through the motions of naming the driver and then deciding whether to accept the offers (course or fixed penalty) or elect for court. For court you need a defence...
Vin
I am going round in circles. Getting a tro out of the council is hard work. This is the second department now although still no luck. this is the response.

I’m afraid there is no TRO connected to this road or the speed camera - no TRO is needed to make this road have a 30 mph speed limit because the national speed limit for street lit roads applies. No street lit road with a 30 mph speed limit would ever need a TRO. A street lit road only needs a TRO if the speed limit is different to 30 mph.



If you would like to look into this further, the rules for this are set out in the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, in sections 81 and 82. I’ve put a link below to the Government’s website which contains this legislation.

[/size]

[size=3]http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/81




Jlc
It is correct that a restricted limit, as defined, does not need a TRO.

But if it was in the past a 40mph then it had to have one. To 'undo' that 40mph limit a TRO would need to rescind it.
Logician
The legislation is explained HERE.
Vin
At last I have managed to get a TRO from the council. Does this help? Have attached the tro that they have sent me today
southpaw82
It looks like it is indeed a restricted road and thus subject to a 30 mph limit.
Jlc
Yup, previous 40mph revoked...
Tipthemout
To save jlc the trouble of repeating himself again, could the OP please answer the question he posed in posts 13 and 21. And apologies to jlc if other than male.
Churchmouse
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 18 Mar 2015 - 18:01) *
It looks like it is indeed a restricted road and thus subject to a 30 mph limit.

In other words, the "authoritative" statement the OP received from the council (that there was no TRO and no TRO was required) was 100% wrong. Surprising, that...

Although it was not useful in this instance (due to the revocation), requesting the TRO could have revealed an oversight on the part of the council, so could still be a worthwhile exercise in other circumstances.

--Churchmouse
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