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FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
Scribly
Folks,

I have received a Council Parking Ticket - the type that is stuck on the windscreen by a Civil Enforcement Officer.

It was in the London Borough of Redbridge in Woodlands Road, IG1 (Ilford) and I had parked on a Single Yellow Line in a road... I parked at 3pm and came back at 8pm to find I was ticketed.

The reason I parked on a Single Yellow Line ON THIS ROAD and no other road was due to the fact that:

1) This road had no "time plates" defining restrictions on parking.
2) There was NO CPZ Sign board on entry TO THE ROAD. - Don't know if this is relevant?
3) There were no kerb markings on the single yellow line.

I also specifically parked on this road... as I drove down every other road in the area near to where I was parking and saw every other road had a time plate on single yellow lines.

I asked the traffic wardens the next day why I got a ticket to which the response was "Redbridge is a Controlled Parking Zone".

My knowledge of CPZ isn't that great but from what I know of the highway code if parking on a Single Yellow Line there must be a time plate showing the hours of operation of any restrictions - on this road there wasn't.


Can some one please offer any advice? Do I stand any chance at representations?

From what I have read online - there must at a minimum be a CPZ Sign at the entry to the road or the "zone boundary" - not sure what they mean by a zone boundary!

Images below and Google Street View Link



https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/33+Wood...3831be1819aeeb8

Scribly
John U.K.
As usual, please post up the PCN (both sides)

Photo or scan. see http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=36858&st=0
for how to do it. I use Tinypic for stage 2 with no problems.

Redact/obscure personal details, PCN no. Reg No.
LEAVE IN all dates/times; precise location, Contravention code and description.

Please also add a link to Google Street View of the location.
DancingDad
I'm struggling to locate Woodland Road in a CPZ though your description would imply that it is.
http://www2.redbridge.gov.uk/cms/parking_r..._zone_maps.aspx
shows list of Redbridge CPZs, can you find which one?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.554034,0....LCVQCFQ!2e0
Further down Woodland, may be one border crossing?

Exploring with google maps and retracing your route may well show the one you passed.
However, if you can find one that is missing, it can really help.
Incandescent
If you passed a CPZ sign on your way to the road you parked, but didn't pass an "end of zone" sign, you were in the CPZ, and the times on that sign define the yellow line times where you parked. CPZs need no time plates on each street, just the entry sign. On the face of it you'll struggle to appeal this one successfully. A CPZ zone must be marked by entry signs which announce entry into the CPZ together with the restricted times of the single yellow lines in the zone. double yellows need no signs at all as they apply 24x7.
Scribly
100% I DID NOT PASS ANY CPZ SIGNAGE. I JUST DOUBLE CHECKED AND RETRACED MY WHOLE ROUTE FROM THE POINT OF EXIT AT A406 E ILFORD JUNCTION - NOT A SINGLE CPZ SIGN ALONG THE ROUTE.

The CPZ Argument WAS STATED BY A CEO AND NOT ME... the next day when I went back to the location... You can see from the links below, all along Albert Road there are TIME PLATES... and on Grosvenor Road also there are time plates and also within the surrounding roads...

I made a mistake in my original post.. I didn't check the roads for a CPZ.. I looked at the lamp posts and "time plates" not for CPZ signage at the entrance of roads.

The CPZ is stuck in my memory because I had a heated debate with a traffic warden the next day who seemed to think I was in the wrong because "Redbridge is in a Controlled Parking Zone" - If I am wrong, I will happily hold my hands up.. but I do not and did not see any CPZ Signage or drive past one.

In fact there are time plates on every road APART from Woodlands Road - the section that I parked on.

WOODLANDS ROAD IS THE ONLY ROAD NOT MARKED WITH TIME PLATES AND IS NOT ON THE CPZ MAPS.

MY VIEW IS THAT WOODLANDS ROAD SHOULD ALSO HAVE TIME PLATES AS DO ALL THE OTHER ROADS.

I came down Albert road, from the roundabout at Sunnyside Road and did not pass any CPZ Signage along my route to the point of turning into Woodlands Road.

Link to Sunnyside Road - Google Streetview and also Albert Road which i turned into.... Woodlands Road turning is 3/4 of the way down the road... Last Link..

Sunnyside Road - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.55918,0.0...UPmiScw!2e0

Albert Road Junction - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.558056,0....neHxUjw!2e0

Woodlands Road Junction - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.556972,0....AKcQXtQ!2e0

Woodlands Road Junction (Different View) - The only signage there is the "Dead End" - which is the turning that I turned in to from Albert Road..
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.556855,0....#33;6m1!1e1
SatNavSam
There are CPZ signs in Meath Road as you approach Albert Road, suggesting that there would be others further back on your route.

There are CPZ signs in Sunnyside Road.
orford
QUOTE (Scribly @ Sun, 8 Feb 2015 - 23:27) *
100% I DID NOT PASS ANY CPZ SIGNAGE. I JUST DOUBLE CHECKED AND RETRACED MY WHOLE ROUTE FROM THE POINT OF EXIT AT A406 E ILFORD JUNCTION - NOT A SINGLE CPZ SIGN ALONG THE ROUTE.

Pretty much the whole of central Ilford is a controlled zone. There are entry signs in Ilford Hill having come off the A406:
https://goo.gl/maps/b7zyz
Scribly
Orford,

I obviously missed that one...

Is that sufficient enough to apply to Woodlands Road though?

Woodlands Road is stupidly far away from that sign in Ilford Hill...

And also why would some roads have time plates in the section I was parked in and other roads not have time plates?

Surely there would need to be a CPZ sign at the junction of Albert Road or Sunnyside Road?

Scribly.

QUOTE
There are CPZ signs in Sunnyside Road.


Not from where I turned in, there aren't...
DancingDad
First identify the CPZ that woodlands is in.
That it is seems correct given the bay and line markings as well as the one entry sign I found, As well as others pointed out.

Having identified the CPZ, we need a map showing the borders. Then we have a chance of finding out if they are all signed, if the signs are adequate and if the CPZ can be questioned in any way.
Phoning Redbridge and asking for a map of the relevant CPZ may help, no point arguing the toss with them, just that you would like a map (and if possible the relevant Traffic Order)
Scribly
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 9 Feb 2015 - 00:04) *
Phoning Redbridge and asking for a map of the relevant CPZ may help, no point arguing the toss with them, just that you would like a map (and if possible the relevant Traffic Order)



I will give them a ring tomorrow but I suspect they will direct me to the website... also noted the CPZ that you pointed out... BUT and possibly a big but...

Would I really be expected to know Woodlands Road is in a CPZ if I DO NOT drive past that sign or come down a particular route?

Considering I came up a different road and would have no idea the CPZ exists...

Scribly.
SatNavSam
CPZ signs in Sunnyside just before roundabout with Albert Road here

Scribly
QUOTE (SatNavSam @ Mon, 9 Feb 2015 - 00:12) *
CPZ signs in Sunnyside just before roundabout with Albert Road here


I came from the other direction.. opposite to the sign and turned RIGHT at that roundabout.. into the road where TREVEN MEDICAL CENTRE is.
DancingDad
QUOTE (Scribly @ Mon, 9 Feb 2015 - 00:10) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 9 Feb 2015 - 00:04) *
Phoning Redbridge and asking for a map of the relevant CPZ may help, no point arguing the toss with them, just that you would like a map (and if possible the relevant Traffic Order)



I will give them a ring tomorrow but I suspect they will direct me to the website... also noted the CPZ that you pointed out... BUT and possibly a big but...

Would I really be expected to know Woodlands Road is in a CPZ if I DO NOT drive past that sign or come down a particular route?

Considering I came up a different road and would have no idea the CPZ exists...

Scribly.


That is the whole point.
Indications are that it is in a CPZ.
However, if you can show a route in without passing a sign, there is no contravention.
To show that, we need solid information where the borders are, then we (and you) can explore and get the proof needed.
The assumption will always be that signs were in place, the onus is on you (and us helping) to show they weren't

Scribly
QUOTE
That is the whole point.
Indications are that it is in a CPZ.
However, if you can show a route in without passing a sign, there is no contravention.
To show that, we need solid information where the borders are, then we (and you) can explore and get the proof needed.
The assumption will always be that signs were in place, the onus is on you (and us helping) to show they weren't


I didn't get very far with Redbridge... The telephone operator just referred me to "write in for the CPZ Map".

The operator stated that the "CPZ MAPS ONLINE ARE ONLY FOR RESIDENTS PARKING" and I have just confirmed with my "colleague" that Woodlands Road is in a CPZ and we don't need to put waiting times in a Single Yellow Line CPZ.

The only way around it is to write in with your request and said person also said the same about the Traffic Order.

When challenged with the fact that surrounding roads have "time plates" she was quite sheepish.

Needless to say I asked if all calls were recorded and what I would need to quote...

Just wondered where I would go from here?


Time: 15:30 - Just to update, I have just driven along the same route I took and the only CPZ sign that would have been visible to me is the one on Ilford Hill as I come off A406 E.

I also drove round the block of several streets to the start of Woodlands Road and there is only ONE CPZ Sign on actual Woodlands Road itself as pointed out by DancingDad - and which would have been impossible for me to drive down that section of the road considering I took a different route.

I can only presume that it is assumed that by the COUNCIL that motorists would come up Ilford Lane which off one of the side roads to access the parade of shops in Woodlands Road.

There is no "ZONE END" at all anywhere along Woodlands Road.

Thank You.

Scribly
Incandescent
OK, so if you are sure of your facts, you appeal on missing/inadequate CPZ signage. You'll have to be prepared to go to PATAS and forgo the discount. Are you prepared to do this, because if you aren't there's really no point in carrying on a any further ?
Scribly
I am prepared to go to the tribunal..

Will I have to pay "costs" if i lose or pay a processing fee?

I am 100% sure of the facts.. I did the same route today on my way in to Ilford..

The only CPZ Sign that would be visible along my route is the ONE CPZ sign on ILFORD HILL which is miles away from Woodlands Road itself.

If I drive round the one way system, past the barclays, first exist at the roundabout then third exit at the next roundabout and round the one way system again I get to Sunny Side Road - Again no CPZ Signage in MY DIRECTION OF TRAVEL.

ALL OF THE SIGNAGE IS POINTING FOR TRAFFIC COMING IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION.

I repeated the journey from Ilford Lane and came down one of the side streets.. this would be the only visible signage to a person coming along one of the streets from Ilford Lane..

Is there an option which says "No signage on the PATAS"?

Scribly
Incandescent
No "costs" just the PCN amount if you lose, (£130). You appeal on the statutory ground of "the offence did not occur" due to the absence of a CPZ sign on your inbound route to the parking location.

You really must record and photo the route as the council will no doubt submit photos in their evidence. Some or all of these may be out-of-date, or even "library" pictures. In my view submitting library pictures is getting close to misleading the tribunal, but adjudicators seem to accept them without a murmur. So you need to be able to refute any evidence they submit that shows signs are in place and readable.
Scribly
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Mon, 9 Feb 2015 - 19:33) *
absence of a CPZ sign on your inbound route to the parking location.


Can I just clarify this statement?

Does this mean on the inbound route CLOSEST to my final parking spot.... or does it include the SINGLE CPZ sign that I passed on Ilford Hill which is the one below:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.556539,0....#33;6m1!1e1


My final destination and entry point to the section of the road where I ended up parking below:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.556972,0....AKcQXtQ!2e0

Scribly



hcandersen
For crying out loud.

Submit your challenge, state that there aren't any time plates in Woodlands Road and therefore you presume that in issuing the PCN the authority are relying on the presence of CPZ entry signs to indicate a controlled zone. Tell them your route into the area and challenge them to identify the applicable CPZ sign(s) should they reject your challenge. Also request recent pictures of this/these signs - this is a reasonable request which they can action simply by askng a patrolling CEO to take pics - they should be checking these signs at least daily anyway.

Stop worrying about where you think the signs are, challenge the authority to identify which one(s) in their opinion applied to your route.

The other debate could go on until the cows come home.
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