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borninwandsworth
I need some advice on whether I should be making a formal challenge of a PCN that was issued to me just before Christmas. I challenged it but have heard back from the council that this informal challenge has been rejected and, whilst I stand by what I have said, I would like more experienced and impartial eyes to see what I have said and advise on if I am right.

See attached the original PCN which I believe has been completed correctly.



My informal appeal was based on the fact I was loading at the time, I arrived at 10.10am went inside to collect a dog and 7 bags (one was a suitcase) and returned to the car at 10.13am to find the CEO by my car.
I asked him not to write up a ticket as I was just loading the car and would be leaving in a minute. He replied OK so I assumed he had not started to issue a ticket and continued to load the car (2 more loads).
When I went to get in at 10.17am he stood in front of the car and proceeded to take photos of the car, before printing and placing the ticket on the car and taking more photos.

I stated to the council that Page 23 of the “Parking Guide to Wandsworth” advises “If you need to deliver or load goods, you may park free of charge in the following places:” ….
“In a permitted parking space (resident, business, pay and display or shared use) in a CPZ for a maximum of 20 minutes only.”
It also states that “The vehicle involved does not have to be a goods vehicle, but the use of the vehicle must be necessary for the loading and unloading, and not merely convenient.”
I was using a private car to make a private collection of a large number of bags and items, I was not able to load from anywhere else as the nearest possible road without any parking restrictions at the time is over 300m away in Rectory Lane, and I believe the location of the car was necessary due to the number and weight of items being loaded.
I believe the Parking Attendant issued the ticket incorrectly because I was there loading goods for less than the 20 minutes that is allowed because I left after the ticket was issued and he had taken the photos.

I provided them photos of the car and what I had loaded, unfortunately I couldn’t get any with the CEO as he had moved away as soon as he issued the ticket and I also provided a photo of my car parked back where it is registered to show I had left (all time stamped).

In the rejection of the informal challenge they advised;
“….the issuing officer observed your vehicle for 5-minutes and witnessed no loading/unloading activity taking place at your vehicle during this time. Additionally the officer notes record seeing the driver return only after the PCN was printed.”

I know this is my word against his but this was not the case at all and the fact the CEO has noted this really angers me because it is a complete outright lie.

Should I point out in a formal challenge that the CEO couldn’t have observed the 5 minutes before issuing the ticket as the time he has listed on the PCN was from 10.11 to 10.16 but the time stamp on the photos he submitted shows my car without a ticket at 10.17 and then a photo with the ticket 10 seconds later.
Did he really wait and observe until 10.16 before he issued and printing the ticket as that means he was able to do this in less than a minute?
How long does it take them to enter the information for the ticket? In order to get the car details and correctly note the relevant information this would be more than a minute unless he was already issuing the ticket before 5 mins.
Also his photos show the car door open because I was loading and also has me visible in the windscreen so therefore I was there.

They have said that my photos don’t satisfy them that “the contents of your vehicle provides sufficient evidence the activity of loading/unloading had taken place at the material time the PCN was issued.” but that is what I was doing and I can’t go back and film the whole process (although next time I will!).

Should I formally challenge and can I add to what I have already advised them as I have noted that the road signs entering the road are not actually in place correctly.
I believe as specified in Direction 8 of the TSRGD, signs should be placed on both sides of the road, except when:
(i) traffic proceeding on another road on which it is permitted to proceed only in one direction turns into the relevant road; or
(ii) the carriageway of the relevant road is less than 5 metres wide and the sign is so placed that its centre is within 2 metres of the edge of the carriageway.
But this is not the case with either end of the road, see attached pictures – in the first there is only one sign but the road is more than 5 metres wide and the second (the end I entered) there is no sign on either side of the road.
I approached from around a roundabout and the road I got onto the roundabout had no signs either. The only sign that has this restriction is facing down towards one of the other roads that leads onto the roundabout so only drivers entering from the direction can see it.



Can I appeal on this as well as the loading even though the signs within the road say it is a Permit Holders area from 10am to 11am?

Sorry for the long post, first time on here and first ticket so just want to give all info.

Thanks in advance.
Enceladus
Please post up a scan of the rejection letter. Redact your name & address, vehicle reg & PCN number. Please leave everything else visible. Similarly please post up the text you sent to the council.

If loading/unloading is permitted and that is what you were doing then I suggest you fight on. In fact it's something of a disgrace that they didn't cancel. A waste of everybody's time and certainly a waste of public money. Alas all too common.
borninwandsworth
Here is my letter to the council - let me know if you want the photos attached too.



Here is their reply.

Hippocrates
The law: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/3/made

3.—(1) Regulations 4 to 7 have effect where a penalty charge which has become payable under the General Regulations has not been paid and either—

(a)a penalty charge notice has been served by a civil enforcement officer under regulation 9 of the General Regulations, and a notice to owner served by the enforcement authority under regulation 19 of those Regulations; or

(b)a penalty charge notice has been served under regulation 10 of the General Regulations.

(2) A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information—

(a)that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and

(b)that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—

(i)those representations will be considered;

(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.


What does that tell you if you care to read your PCN?!

CEO's notes? Have you asked for them?
borninwandsworth
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Wed, 4 Feb 2015 - 23:26) *
The law: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/3/made

3.—(1) Regulations 4 to 7 have effect where a penalty charge which has become payable under the General Regulations has not been paid and either—

(a)a penalty charge notice has been served by a civil enforcement officer under regulation 9 of the General Regulations, and a notice to owner served by the enforcement authority under regulation 19 of those Regulations; or

(b)a penalty charge notice has been served under regulation 10 of the General Regulations.

(2) A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information—

(a)that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and

(b)that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—

(i)those representations will be considered;

(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.


What does that tell you if you care to read your PCN?!

CEO's notes? Have you asked for them?


Sorry, I don't understand. I have read the PCN which was served under regulation 12 I believe - can you elaborate what I am missing as I am new to all this as this is my first parking ticket.

CEO notes - do I write to the Council requesting them? If so does this take long?

Thanks for your help with this.
borninwandsworth
QUOTE (Enceladus @ Wed, 4 Feb 2015 - 21:11) *
Please post up a scan of the rejection letter. Redact your name & address, vehicle reg & PCN number. Please leave everything else visible. Similarly please post up the text you sent to the council.

If loading/unloading is permitted and that is what you were doing then I suggest you fight on. In fact it's something of a disgrace that they didn't cancel. A waste of everybody's time and certainly a waste of public money. Alas all too common.


Did you have any further thoughts after viewing my letters?

I want to fight on but I am not sure if my word against his is sufficient.

Someone has suggested I request the CEO notes, do you know how to do this?

Appreciate any help.
DancingDad
Phone council and ask. Though better if the request is in writing.

They do not deny the loading exemption, just that you don't qualify as the CEO didn't see it!

It will likely come down to your word against CEOs but you will have the advantage that you can be sitting in front of an adjudicator and tell your side. As long as you come across as credible, you should win. CEOs very rarely (never?) attend.

Depends how committed you are and willing to risk discount.
borninwandsworth
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 9 Feb 2015 - 10:37) *
Phone council and ask. Though better if the request is in writing.

They do not deny the loading exemption, just that you don't qualify as the CEO didn't see it!

It will likely come down to your word against CEOs but you will have the advantage that you can be sitting in front of an adjudicator and tell your side. As long as you come across as credible, you should win. CEOs very rarely (never?) attend.

Depends how committed you are and willing to risk discount.


Thanks.

How about the CPZ signs and the fact there aren't any at the end of the road which is the start of this zone? I know there are signs along the road but I understand these must also be in place in order for the CPN to be enforceable.
DancingDad
Irrelevant.
Even within a CPZ, the parking bays are separately signed. That is the contravention, failing to obey the traffic order which the signs show.
Sunderland showed that you cannot damn a whole CPZ and all the restrictions within it because of one missing sign.
I'm, fairly certain that any adjudicator would stay with that and simply want to know if the specific restriction signs are in place.
Stick with loading
hcandersen
As I see it:

Vehicles are allowed to park in these bays without displaying a permit subject in this instance to loading etc. taking place for no more than 20 minutes.

There is no issue regarding the 20 minutes.

The CEO observed the vehice for the period required by the authority, in this case 5 minutes, and did not see any evidence of loading etc.

The authority state that the PCN was correctly issued and IMO as this is not the central issue I will let it pass for the moment.

The OP challenged with evidence not available to the CEO, in this case photos and a written submission.

The authority were required to consider this evidence to see whether the penalty should stand.

The authority acknowledge that loading etc. is an exemption and have not challenged the issues of where the vehicle was parked relative to the premises and the type of vehicle but nonetheless have rejected the OP's claim on the grounds that the contents of the OP's vehicle, as evidenced by the OP's photos, do not provide sufficient evidence that loading/unloading 'had taken place at the material time...'.

It would be useful to see these photos.

I don't understand the authority's logic given that the CEO did not see the driver during the period of observation and therefore whatever was already in the vehicle could not have been loaded at the time of the contravention (the material time)! It therefore follows that if the driver was only loading etc. then the issue to be considered is whether the load which the driver had at the time they returned to the vehicle fell within the exemption criteria.

OP, were you loading etc. only and what load did you have on your return to the vehicle?

I'd rather get into these issues before we confuse the OP with technical issues regarding wording which, however relevant, does not go to the issue of the contravention which is where I prefer to start.
borninwandsworth
Here are the photos I provided showing the items I was loading into the car. I only took them afterwards and not before or during because there was no ticket issued and the CEO had replied to my statement when I said I was loading so assumed all was fine.



It took me three journeys to put these in the car and I started this before the PCN was issued at 10.13am - I had arrived in the street at around 10.10am before the CEO arrived and observed my car.

He is saying he observed for 5mins without seeing the driver but this is simply not true but it is my word against his.

What are thoughts on this - they say it is insufficient but it is what I loaded and you can't expect someone to load all this from 300m which was the next nearest free parking area.

DancingDad
Nothing seems heavy or bulky which is yardstick that authorities use.
But there is a lot of it and that also counts.
Nicely timestamped on photos as well which either says, this is what I was loading, it was in the car already or I got this lot in the 4 minutes after the PCN was served.

Stick with it.
May need to get as far as PATAS but as long as an adjudicator finds you credible, can't see not winning.
Incandescent
Stand your ground ! They have failed to consider, basically, by stating the CEO saw no loading activity in 5 minutes. Loading does not just cover taking stuff in or out of the vehicle, but delivering/collecting from premises. It also includes getting somebody to accept goods etc, (but this bit doesn't seem to apply to you). Whatever; you have a clear exemption for loading and an adjudicator is almost bound to accept your explanation.
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