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Hassan2015
Looking through the net, I found numerous manuals for the Lti device, the one used by mostly ALL the forces in their camera vans and ...

I remember about 10 years ago, I was fighting a case and asked for the manual to be presented, but the CPS jumped up and started to scream that this is a sensitive document and can't be released!

But it seems in 2011, they have finally lost the battle and there seems to be manuals from forces all over the country on their websites for DL!

Shame this wasn't released 10 years ago!


Out of curiosity, have anyone used the manual successfully in courts to prove that the recommendations by the manufacturer wasn't carried out? things like sight alignment and instrument accuracy checks?

H
andy_foster
Is your question related to a live case, or could you simply not bother to see if we had an appropriate forum for questions relating to speed detection devices?
Hassan2015
It is related to a live case where it was used in fog on a dual carriage way.

I would have provided more information, but currently awaiting to see I have actually been caught or not.

mrh3369
If you don't even know if you were caught how on earth can you know what device was being used?
Gan
If it's this case, you could pay the fine and costs out of tickets and popcorn sales

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=96231

Hassan2015
No, that case is a average speed case.

This one, was in the early hours of the morning, 7.30am on a SUNDAY! going to work down a dual carriage way. Then saw the camera van in distance.

The constabulary in question has bought about 4 new vans in the recent 12 months and they pop up all over the place. They all use the LTI20-20 device with a huge lens on them which according to a spokesman for the force, they can pick up a car from a mile away!

I don't like these devices since they rely on a operator operating them correctly. where as the fixed devices, don't rely on human error! I know I wasn't speeding, but due to the fog and mist, what if the device recorded incorrectly?

George Carter
QUOTE (Hassan2015 @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 12:11) *
It is related to a live case where it was used in fog on a dual carriage way.

I would have provided more information, but currently awaiting to see I have actually been caught or not.



As long as they had a clear line of sight then fog shouldn't be an issue.


QUOTE (Hassan2015 @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 12:53) *
No, that case is a average speed case.

This one, was in the early hours of the morning, 7.30am on a SUNDAY! going to work down a dual carriage way. Then saw the camera van in distance.

The constabulary in question has bought about 4 new vans in the recent 12 months and they pop up all over the place. They all use the LTI20-20 device with a huge lens on them which according to a spokesman for the force, they can pick up a car from a mile away!

I don't like these devices since they rely on a operator operating them correctly. where as the fixed devices, don't rely on human error! I know I wasn't speeding, but due to the fog and mist, what if the device recorded incorrectly?



If you could see him, he can see you.

But then if you weren't speeding or don't have a nip this is a nothing thread.
The Rookie
The LTi 20.20 has always worked to 1km.
Hassan2015
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 14:20) *
The LTi 20.20 has always worked to 1km.


1km is about half a mile? But they say it can pick you up from about a mile away!

I am not a photographer, but I know when I zoom in from a very long distance, then the slightest movements in hand, can have a big impact on the position of the target!

Unless it is just a scare tactic and although it works up to a mile, due to false reads in the real world, they only use it at shorter distances?

southpaw82
That's why its securely mounted and not hand held.
George Carter
QUOTE (Hassan2015 @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 14:57) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 14:20) *
The LTi 20.20 has always worked to 1km.


1km is about half a mile? But they say it can pick you up from about a mile away!

I am not a photographer, but I know when I zoom in from a very long distance, then the slightest movements in hand, can have a big impact on the position of the target!

Unless it is just a scare tactic and although it works up to a mile, due to false reads in the real world, they only use it at shorter distances?


The manual says it has a range of 1000m, which comic did you read saying it was 1 mile?
Jlc
If you have been caught remember to respond to the s172 unequivocally.

They operate at all times of day - the only defence is not to speed.
The Rookie
One km is a bit further than half a mile....
Hassan2015
QUOTE (George Carter @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 15:08) *
QUOTE (Hassan2015 @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 14:57) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 14:20) *
The LTi 20.20 has always worked to 1km.


1km is about half a mile? But they say it can pick you up from about a mile away!

I am not a photographer, but I know when I zoom in from a very long distance, then the slightest movements in hand, can have a big impact on the position of the target!

Unless it is just a scare tactic and although it works up to a mile, due to false reads in the real world, they only use it at shorter distances?


The manual says it has a range of 1000m, which comic did you read saying it was 1 mile?



This is what I was told by an operator of one when I met him at one of those country fairs that they come and sit there for people to take a look around.


I must say though inside it look awesome. Not what I really thought what it would look like !
George Carter
QUOTE (Hassan2015 @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 18:13) *
QUOTE (George Carter @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 15:08) *
QUOTE (Hassan2015 @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 14:57) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 14:20) *
The LTi 20.20 has always worked to 1km.


1km is about half a mile? But they say it can pick you up from about a mile away!

I am not a photographer, but I know when I zoom in from a very long distance, then the slightest movements in hand, can have a big impact on the position of the target!

Unless it is just a scare tactic and although it works up to a mile, due to false reads in the real world, they only use it at shorter distances?


The manual says it has a range of 1000m, which comic did you read saying it was 1 mile?



This is what I was told by an operator of one when I met him at one of those country fairs that they come and sit there for people to take a look around.


I must say though inside it look awesome. Not what I really thought what it would look like !


Well if you've seen inside you'll know the gun is mounted and not hand held.
Hassan2015
I do. However i am sure you know when you are on the side of a road, specially a dual carriage way, then any car that goes past you will make your car rock slightly. Now if you are trying to ping a car which is 1Km is away or more, then any movements in the car can cause the camera to move and possibly give a slip error?

mrh3369
Clutching at straws I'm afraid, you would have to go to court and try to prove that and the cost of failure could be very high if expert witnesses are brought in.
baggins1234
QUOTE (Hassan2015 @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 19:29) *
I do. However i am sure you know when you are on the side of a road, specially a dual carriage way, then any car that goes past you will make your car rock slightly. Now if you are trying to ping a car which is 1Km is away or more, then any movements in the car can cause the camera to move and possibly give a slip error?



It's in a van not a car...will a car passing a van rock it sufficiently?
Can you say that such a movement occurred?
Even if it did....did you see it occur?
If yes, which vehicle caused it to move?
Bearing in mind you've already said it was foggy.....

Sorry but I agree with Mrh3369 in that you're clutching at straws
George Carter
QUOTE (Hassan2015 @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 19:29) *
I do. However i am sure you know when you are on the side of a road, specially a dual carriage way, then any car that goes past you will make your car rock slightly. Now if you are trying to ping a car which is 1Km is away or more, then any movements in the car can cause the camera to move and possibly give a slip error?


It would be 1km or less, not more.

If you think that and you have been caught plead not guilty, as for the recording in the ping and then find yourself and expert to convince the court that's what happened.
justforthepictures
QUOTE (Hassan2015 @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 13:53) *
No, that case is a average speed case.

This one, was in the early hours of the morning, 7.30am on a SUNDAY! going to work down a dual carriage way. Then saw the camera van in distance.

The constabulary in question has bought about 4 new vans in the recent 12 months and they pop up all over the place. They all use the LTI20-20 device with a huge lens on them which according to a spokesman for the force, they can pick up a car from a mile away!

I don't like these devices since they rely on a operator operating them correctly. where as the fixed devices, don't rely on human error! I know I wasn't speeding, but due to the fog and mist, what if the device recorded incorrectly?

The 'huge' lens isn't attached to the speedscope, it's connected to the video camera. The latest lens being offered with new kit are Canon image stabilised, that come with an optional x2 converter allowing a focal length of 1000mm.

This has no impact on the operation of the laser whatsoever and is used solely for the purposes of vehicle identification. The greater the magnification available, the more operational flexibility you have at sites with very long stretches of carriageway.

One other point, remember, the UK LTI manuals you see available will usually be produced by the importers NOT the manufacturer.
Hassan2015
QUOTE (justforthepictures @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 20:55) *
The 'huge' lens isn't attached to the speedscope, it's connected to the video camera. The latest lens being offered with new kit are Canon image stabilised, that come with an optional x2 converter allowing a focal length of 1000mm.

This has no impact on the operation of the laser whatsoever and is used solely for the purposes of vehicle identification. The greater the magnification available, the more operational flexibility you have at sites with very long stretches of carriageway.

One other point, remember, the UK LTI manuals you see available will usually be produced by the importers NOT the manufacturer.


Thanks for the information.

So the operator sees the vehicle through this lens ( The Cannon one) which would have the cross printed on it, hence why it is important to do the vertical and horizontal adjustment to make sure the laser and the cross are pointing at the correct object? Or does the operator see the car through a different lens?


StationCat
Very few pings are actually made at the far end of the possible range (1km). Most pings will be much closer - a few hundred metres. Operators usually look out of the window at vehicles...pick one that is over the limit....look through the scope on the laser gun (x2 magnification on the Ultralyte 1000)....put the dot on the car...pull the trigger....check the speed on the HUD....then look at the screen showing the video view and use it to track the vehicle to record the number plate and the driver. The laser from the gun is invisible, so the scope alignment check confirms that the beam is properly aligned with the red dot in the scope. The red dot is then aligned with the cross hairs which are superimposed on the video image. This then confirms that the video cross-hairs are aligned with the laser beam. Primary evidence is the operator's opinion combined with the laser gun reading. The video is just to aid in identifying the vehicle.
Hassan2015
QUOTE (StationCat @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 21:51) *
. Primary evidence is the operator's opinion combined with the laser gun reading. The video is just to aid in identifying the vehicle.


It is quite funny that the operators opinion is the primary evidence!

I wonder how many times CPS have had to provide the full video of an operators day to see how many pings he did that were over the threshold and how many were under!

I bet all they do is sit there and ping away and watch the ££££s go up!

Don't get me wrong! I am all up for them sitting in built up areas and catching those people who think it is ok to do 40,50 in built up areas!

But when they sit on dual carriageway catching people at 76mph, that winds me up! Is there a chance of a small child running in the middle of the road at 7:30am on a Sunday morning! That's all about making money!


captain swoop
QUOTE (Hassan2015 @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 23:02) *
But when they sit on dual carriageway catching people at 76mph, that winds me up!


Do you know of anyone that has been prosecuted for 76mph on a dual carriageway?
Jlc
Enforcement starts at a generous +10%+2, so at 79mph.
Hassan2015
QUOTE (captain swoop @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 23:05) *
QUOTE (Hassan2015 @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 23:02) *
But when they sit on dual carriageway catching people at 76mph, that winds me up!


Do you know of anyone that has been prosecuted for 76mph on a dual carriageway?



yes, me! but I got off :wink.gif



southpaw82
QUOTE (Hassan2015 @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 23:02) *
But when they sit on dual carriageway catching people at 76mph, that winds me up! Is there a chance of a small child running in the middle of the road at 7:30am on a Sunday morning! That's all about making money!

It's all about enforcing the law.
Hassan2015
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 25 Jan 2015 - 00:40) *
It's all about enforcing the law.



I thought it was all about road safety and reducing casualties! They do call themselves ' Safety Camera Partnership' after all!


Isn't it time that they all sit down and look at this all over again! The speed limits came into effect when cars of the time weren't that good! but nowadays with all the safety in cars and ..., surely it is time to raise this limit!

Just because the limit might be raised, it doesn't mean EVERYONE has to drive at the limit. You drive at the speed you FEEL you are in control of your car. If it is below the speed limit, then be it, others would have to find a safe place to go past you!

And I am talking about national speed limits on dual carriageways and motorways and not 30mph limits!
Jlc
Many of us agree that some limits could be reviewed/increased. But if you choose to exceed these limits by an already generous margin then you can only expect 'punishment' if caught.
southpaw82
QUOTE (Hassan2015 @ Sun, 25 Jan 2015 - 09:01) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 25 Jan 2015 - 00:40) *
It's all about enforcing the law.



I thought it was all about road safety and reducing casualties!

That is an expected by-product of enforcing the law.
justforthepictures
QUOTE (Hassan2015 @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 22:41) *
QUOTE (justforthepictures @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 20:55) *
The 'huge' lens isn't attached to the speedscope, it's connected to the video camera. The latest lens being offered with new kit are Canon image stabilised, that come with an optional x2 converter allowing a focal length of 1000mm.

This has no impact on the operation of the laser whatsoever and is used solely for the purposes of vehicle identification. The greater the magnification available, the more operational flexibility you have at sites with very long stretches of carriageway.

One other point, remember, the UK LTI manuals you see available will usually be produced by the importers NOT the manufacturer.


Thanks for the information.

So the operator sees the vehicle through this lens ( The Cannon one) which would have the cross printed on it, hence why it is important to do the vertical and horizontal adjustment to make sure the laser and the cross are pointing at the correct object? Or does the operator see the car through a different lens?

The crosshairs aren't part of the lens, they are superimposed by the Concept system.

Yes, every time the focal length is altered, the apparent optical relationship between the laser/red dot alters, so needs realigning.

The operator should be using the red dot in the sighting scope mounted on top of the speedmeter (LTI Ultralyte 100/1000), to position the laser.
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