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NissanJames
Hi, I've just found that I've got a parking ticket on a Tottenham Hotspur match day.

When I passed the signs on entering the parking zone on Sunday 11th (I think, could have been Saturday 10th) they said: 1st Jan and 17th Jan were the next event days. (1st had clearly passed).

I haven't moved the car since, thinking it was fine until the 17th, but today find that the signs have changed to 14th and 17th Jan and I have a ticket. (Not sure exactly when the signs changed).

This seems completely unfair and misleading to me. Car was parked directly opposite my house and I even have a driveway that I would have moved it to if Haringey had given me appropriate notice!

Does anyone have any idea if this will be an acceptable excuse to Haringey Council?

Many thanks,
James

PS. It's a code 12 which I've read might be an alternative way out. Note sure if it applies to me though: PARKED IN A RESIDENTS' OR SHARED USE PARKING PLACE OR ZONE WITHOUT EITHER CLEARLY DISPLAYING A VALID PERMIT OR VOUCHER OR PAY AND DISPLAY TICKET ISSUED FOR THAT PLACE, OR WITHOUT PAYMENT OF THE PARKING CHARGE.


NissanJames
Here's the PCN, let me know if you need anymore information. Many thanks everyone

Click to view attachment
Enceladus
Was your car in a parking bay? Please post up a photo of the sign adjacent to the bay. They signs seem to be out of focus on GSV.

Is there a controlled parking zone (residents' permits) where you live?

If this was not a residents only or shared use residents / P&D bay then arguably the contravention did not occur. It should have been "Parked in a permit space or zone without displaying a valid permit." AKA code 16.
NissanJames
Hi Enceladus, thanks for the reply. Here's the sign where it was parked. It was pretty much in the same place as the silver Merc on GSV.


hcandersen
You appear to live here.

These restrictions are put in place to protect residents from being forced out of their roads by football supporters' cars.

So, surely you have a permit? If not, why not? Is there more to this than you've posted?

Anyway, the authority are under a duty to indicate clearly when the parking restrictions apply and this means placing clear info on 'Event Days'.

IMO, this has nothing to do with 'parking zones', in fact I'm not even certain what you mean by this term.
NissanJames
Hcandersen, completely understand why you'd ask but the answer is simple: Just moved here! The permits are free for residents but you can only apply for a car that's registered in the area and although we've sent off the V5 we're still waiting on the DVLA to update the records. In the meantime, we have a driveway so it shouldn't be a problem - if the council made it clear enough for us!

Interestingly our neighbours' visitor got a ticket tonight, I said I'd let them know if I got anywhere on this forum! The funny thing is that they got a contravention code: 16: Parked in a permit space or zone without clearly displaying a valid permit. This is different from my code: 12, which does make Enceladus's point all the more valid!



Bogsy
Ask the council to prove that the sign shown in google is either prescribed by regulations or approved by the secretary of state. An unlawful sign means no contravention = cancelled charge!
Rob232
The sign seems unclear whether restrictions start from 5.00am or 5.00pm on a weekday event day, doesn't affect OP, but signs should be clear about the restriction, and that one isn't.
hcandersen
The PCN makes it clear that photos may be viewed on the authority's website. OP, you must view these and hopefully post them here.

As others have posted, we need to know exactly what was on the sign because this represents part of the authority's evidence.
Enceladus
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 18 Jan 2015 - 07:44) *
As others have posted, we need to know exactly what was on the sign because this represents part of the authority's evidence.

The OP has already posted the sign in post #4 above. Rotate the GSV image down slightly and you can see the silver Mercedes. That's where he said he parked. So right under the sign.
hcandersen
This is a GSV photo and is old. It is not the council's evidence.

The sign should carry information regarding whether the day in question was an event day, so we need to see the actual and not an historical sign.
Enceladus
It's July 2014. However yes the OP should confirm that the image is current.

The Event Day dates are posted on the zone entry signs. So he won't have a photo of it.
Enceladus
Having looked on the Spurs website it seems that the match on the 14th was an FA cup replay consequential to the 5th Jan 1-1 draw against Burnley.

So the Event Days you say were posted at the time you entered the zone, 1st Jan & 17th Jan, would have been correct at one point in time. Certainly they were correct until the 5th Jan 2015.

Hence I wonder when would the council have been informed that the replay would be scheduled for the 14th and when would they have got around to updating the signs. Your story of how you were misled by the zone entry sign sounds very credible to me. That said it's probably not sufficient on it's own to get the PCN revoked. Presumably you should have checked for updates to the posted event days.

So in any representations you make I suggest you ask the council for the date that they were informed of the unplanned/new fixture on the 14th and a copy of the log of when they actually changed the signs. Also ask for the traffic order relating to the Event Day CPZ. See what it says about minimum notice etc for posting changes.

Do any of the evidence photos, on the council site, show the zone entry signs?
spaceman
I'm not a Tottenham fan, but I am guessing that the sign was amended because the game on New Year's Day (v Chelsea) had passed, the 14th would have been their FA Cup replay against Burnley which the council would not have known about this until 5th/6th January, i.e. after they posted the sign that you saw.

Not suggesting you have no grounds, just a bit of background is all!


hcandersen
OP, it's not your task to guess how or whether the authority signed the restriction, it's their job to demonstrate that they've complied with their legal duty in the circumstances of your case.

IMO, you challenge on the basis that the contravention did not occur because there was no indication at the location that at the time of the contravention a restriction was in effect. If the authority reject your challenge then you require them to provide evidence that the restriction was signed. In the event that they rely on having placed a sign elsewhere than at the location, you require evidence to this effect including, but not limited to, a photo of the sign in situ and details of when it was put in place.
NissanJames
I've posted the images from Haringey Council's website below:

Click to view attachment
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Four very very bad photos and a decent one of a sign! I'm going to summarise the posts so far below:

Having read through all the posts so far, it seems to me that there are a few different options for my challenge.

1) The parking violation should have been code 16, and not the code 12 that I received. [thanks Enceladus]
If this is true, then this sounds like a good way to go, but I'd love confirmation of this from a guru now that I've posted the Council's photo of the sign. Note also my neighbour getting a code 16 ticket a couple of days later for the same contravention.

2) "The contravention did not occur because there was no indication at the location that at the time of the contravention a restriction was in effect" or similar [thanks hcanderson]
This is the real reason I don't think that I should have to pay for the ticket and so it feels right to use (although that's not a very pragmatic)! It's standard practice for the Council to sign on the entry of the parking zones, rather than at the location of the contravention, so I'd imagine they'd be ready with photos of the signs having been put up? I'm unsure if my honest reason of the extra date being added after I entered the zone is worth using or not.

3) Now that I've looked at the images on the Council's website (posted above) I wonder if this is a way to go instead. Who's to say that the cars is parked anywhere near this sign. The photos are awful. Do they need to be better? Can this be my get out clause?

Thanks everyone for all your help, it's really appreciated.

James
hcandersen
The contravention did not occur:

The authority's photos indicate an occasional restriction. However, they have produced no evidence which indicates that this was in effect at the time of the contravention. If anything, the sign indicates that the restriction was not in effect. (Please stop guessing about a sign being displayed elsewhere. In any event, why would you assume that this complies with their duty in any event?). In any event, the restriction relates to 'permit holders' for which the applicable contravention is ...... Valid permit, code 16 whereas the PCN states ...... Residents or shared use..... Consequently, whether a restriction was in force or not, the PCN does not state the correct contravention which therefore did not occur.

You are not writing War and Peace and I think that all points could be captured within a single paragraph, but these should be your words.
Enceladus
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 19 Jan 2015 - 08:02) *
The contravention did not occur: Agreed!

The authority's photos indicate an occasional restriction. Agreed!
However, they have produced no evidence which indicates that this was in effect at the time of the contravention. Thus far at least!
If anything, the sign indicates that the restriction was not in effect. How do you get to that?
hcandersen
Because there's nothing on it which indicates that the date on which it was taken was an event day. As it stands, it states that on event days the following restriction applies. But this still begs the question: what is an event day?
Enceladus
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 19 Jan 2015 - 17:53) *
Because there's nothing on it which indicates that the date on which it was taken was an event day. As it stands, it states that on event days the following restriction applies. But this still begs the question: what is an event day?


I am not sure that will fly. This concerns a Controlled Parking Zone. The CPZ boundary and the in-zone signs are apparently approved by the DFT. These is no requirement for them to update the "Event Days" on the in-zone signs. Only to update the next two Event Days on the the zone entry/boundary signs. This is the same arrangement for Event Day zones across London.

That said none of the evidence photos show any sign at all that list the event days.

However the OP says that at the time he entered the CPZ on the 10th/11th the zone entry signs advised Event Days on the 1st and 17th Jan. I would be inclined to argue that this created a legitimate expectation that he could park up to the start of restrictions on the 17th. He was obliged to check the event days and he did. Why would he check again until the 17th?

My experience with PATAS is that the earlier you bring up something you later rely on the more credible you are.

So I would simply state that when I entered the zone, I checked the sign and it clearly stated that the next Event Days were the 1st and 17th of Jan. I took notice of this and acted on the council's information in good faith. So why was I served with a PCN on the 14th?

I would still ask when the boundary sign was updated. And I would explain that I have only just moved there and am awaiting new V5c from the DVLA so I can apply for an Event Day permit.

Politely ask the council to use their discretion and cancel the PCN.
hcandersen
In the circumstances of this case, CPZ is not relevant. The alleged contravention relates to a parking place. Whether this is physically located in a CPZ is not a relevant matter, the restriction in a parking place sinks or swims on the basis of the traffic sign at that location.

The only link between CPZ and this issue is that the CPZ might also operate at different times on 'event days' and therefore provide a convenient pole on which to hang a notice to the effect that *** is an event day. But this does not alter the fact that the authority are under a duty to sign restrictions lawfully and clearly, it also involves the same issue which is raised in another thread here i.e. if a vehicle is in a parking place lawfully and the authority change the restriction without the vehicle moving, does the mean that the vehicle is now in contravention? That thread involves a bay being suspended around a motorbike, but the principle is the same.

So, IMO there are two issue of law here:
1. If a vehicle is in a parking place lawfully and the sign in that place is not altered, may the authority bring into force a restriction which has the effect of putting the car in contravention?

2. If yes, does placing a sign other than in the parking place create that restriction?

IMO, in the circumstances of this case no and no.
NissanJames
Hi all, I have submitted my challenge based on your advice. I have borrowed Enceladus's words about acting in good faith based on the council's information, and explained politely why I feel it should be cancelled. I hope this is enough, but in case it's not, I have then also added that a code 12 ticket is not correct and so the contravention did not occur. Finally if they won't cancel the ticket, I've requested that they send me evidence of when they were informed of the event day, when the the relevant boundary sign was updated, and also to provide a copy of the relevant traffic order.

I'll update the thread to let you know the result.

Many many thanks again for all your help with this. A special thanks Enceladus, and to the chap who clearly stated "I am NOT a Tottenham fan, but..." and was still willing to help biggrin.gif

NissanJames
Hi all, I'm pleased to say that we were successful!

They said: "I have considered the points you made and have decided to cancel your penalty charge notice due to wrong observation."

I have attached the letter in case any one is interested.

Many thanks for all your help with this, it's really appreciated!

James
Click to view attachment
Enceladus
"due to wrong observation". What is that supposed to mean?u Anyway well done!
NissanJames
Yeah, I really don't know, but I thought perhaps "considered the points you made" sounded like they did read my polite rant about why the ticket was unfair, and "due to wrong observation" made me think it was probably the code 14 / 16 bit that was the actual reason for it being cancelled. Who knows though!
defconian
Hi Nissan,

I have been in the same situation, with 3 tickets, I challenged, they refused , then I went to PATAS, the council LOST.
Ive found 5 reason for them to lose but the ARBITER showed me the 6th one, and the biggest one of all, that NON of the pictures taken by them show the notice board stating that there is an event during that day.

Have fun and go to PATAS smile.gif
if you need a case number give me a shout and ill send you one.

Please read this one

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...p;#entry1062268

Good luck
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