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misterMan
Hi all.

I've just been issued with NIP for an SP50 recorded at 114mph.

Police officer was alone and used something called a 'Petard' to identify my speed in relation to his.

He pulled me over and I was subsequently given my rights but told I wasn't under arrest. It was all very formal and quick and basically sent me on my way with a yellow slip and I was told to expect a court summons.

My question is what can I expect to receive?

I'm not a high earner so I'm not in a position to get a solicitor to act on my behalf. I know what speed I was doing and I know I should have been traveling a little slower. It was a momentary lapse in concentration on my part as I accelerated past the unmarked car.

I have no dependants who rely on my ability to drive. My workplace is within a commutable distance on public transport (as much a I detest stepping on a train) and although I work for a reputable local higher education institution, I don't really need my car as I'm predominantly office based and I therefore don't feel I have enough grounds for mitigation. Having said that, there are instances where I'm on call and may need to get the office at times when public transport isn't available.


Any advice and wisdom greatly appreciated.
Jlc
SP50 is the endorsement code for exceeding the speed limit on a motorway. I presume you were caught doing 114 in a 70 then?

This will go straight to court with a ban the most likely outcome:



For a guilty plea the fine is discounted by 33%, costs of £85 and 10% of the fine as victim's surcharge. You don't need a solicitor but you will have to attend the court local to the offence.

I would assume your speed was measured using a 'ProVida'. (Made by Petards)
misterMan
Thanks for the calculator Jlc. Yes, this took place on a 70mph dual carriageway.

Is it likely to be both points and a ban or is it entirely down to the magistrates in deciding on whether to impose either a fine and ban or all of the above?
southpaw82
Points or a ban, not both (unless totting at 12 points).
Jlc
That speed is off the usual sentencing guidelines. Assume a ban of around 2 months and anything less is a bonus. We have seen 6 points for similar speeds but definitely the exception.
misterMan
Thanks for the heads up. It's nice to get a rough idea of what to expect at sentencing.
The Rookie
QUOTE (misterMan @ Wed, 14 Jan 2015 - 16:59) *
Police officer was alone and used something called a 'Petard' to identify my speed in relation to his.

Petard is French for an explosive device, usually a stick of dynamite but covers other such as a banger - though in France they can be as big and powerful as a small stick of dynamite ('Hoist by his own petard' means he blew himself up), so suspect you misheard him.
emsgeorge
Petards is a manufacturer of police in car video equipment.




http://www.petards.com/emergency_services/index.aspx




They own the 'provida' brand of speed measuring kit.

The Rookie
Argh, got you, only ever heard it referred to as Provida before.
misterMan
For the purposes of calculating the maximum fine and assuming that the magistrates would stick relatively closely to the guidelines - I'm wondering if the road I was driving on is classed as a motorway or not? It is an A number dual-carriageway and I'm fairly certain is classified as such. Will this therefore have any implications on the "maximum fine" limit (£1000 vs £2500 in this instance).
Logician
QUOTE (misterMan @ Thu, 15 Jan 2015 - 11:36) *
For the purposes of calculating the maximum fine and assuming that the magistrates would stick relatively closely to the guidelines - I'm wondering if the road I was driving on is classed as a motorway or not? It is an A number dual-carriageway and I'm fairly certain is classified as such. Will this therefore have any implications on the "maximum fine" limit (£1000 vs £2500 in this instance).


No is the short answer. The fine will be based on your net weekly income, less 33% for a G plea, plus a surcharge of 10% (minimum £20), and costs of £85. Since the speed was so high they might possibly go up a bit from that guideline figure, up to say 25% more. The provisions for the maximum fine only really come into play for very high earners and you say you are not one of those.

misterMan
Ok, thanks Logician.
BertB
'A roads' designated as motorways usually carry an (M) suffix to the road name, i.e. A1(M). There will also be a noticeable difference in road signs between the two.

Was this definitely an A Road? It used to be the case where an SP50 would load an insurance premium higher than an SP30. I don't know if that is still the case these days.

I'm also not sure what influence you could have on the specific offence code used for the endorsement though.
Jlc
Yes, those maximum fine figures are for premiership footballers and tabloid headlines... wink.gif
misterMan
QUOTE (BertB @ Thu, 15 Jan 2015 - 12:19) *
'A roads' designated as motorways usually carry an (M) suffix to the road name, i.e. A1(M). There will also be a noticeable difference in road signs between the two.

Was this definitely an A Road? It used to be the case where an SP50 would load an insurance premium higher than an SP30. I don't know if that is still the case these days.

I'm also not sure what influence you could have on the specific offence code used for the endorsement though.


Definitely an A road. No other designations or suffixes.

With regards to an SP50 on my licence, I actually have an SP30 that's dropping off at the end of this month. With the likelihood of an impending ban, and having already been paying an inflated premium for the SP30 (3 points, no ban), will an SP50 with ban make a significant difference to my premiums?
Jlc
It's points (endorsement code) or a ban - not both. But any ban still has to be declared to the insurer - generally a ban will have a greater effect than points.
misterMan
QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 15 Jan 2015 - 12:30) *
It's points (endorsement code) or a ban - not both. But any ban still has to be declared to the insurer - generally a ban will have a greater effect than points.


I see, so a ban is not coded as such, it's just declared simply as a "Ban of n amount of time".
George Carter
QUOTE (misterMan @ Thu, 15 Jan 2015 - 12:32) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 15 Jan 2015 - 12:30) *
It's points (endorsement code) or a ban - not both. But any ban still has to be declared to the insurer - generally a ban will have a greater effect than points.


I see, so a ban is not coded as such, it's just declared simply as a "Ban of n amount of time".



You'll still get the offence put on your licence if convicted SP50 in the offence box and a disq instead of the points. If it's more than 56 days your licence must be surrendered and you'll need to apply for a new one.
Logician
Except we have now established that it was an A road so it would be an SP30.
misterMan
QUOTE (Logician @ Thu, 15 Jan 2015 - 14:14) *
Except we have now established that it was an A road so it would be an SP30.



Nope - the slip of paper I received appears to have an SP50 stated as the offence code - although it did occur in a 'Non-motorway special road' if that makes any difference? Where the speed limit is specified as 70mph and traffic is restricted (no learners, cyclists etc).
martinbiz
QUOTE (misterMan @ Thu, 15 Jan 2015 - 14:39) *
although it did occur in a 'Non-motorway special road' if that makes any difference? Where the speed limit is specified as 70mph and traffic is restricted (no learners, cyclists etc).



Didn't know one of them existed
George Carter
What road were you caught on?
Aretnap
QUOTE (martinbiz @ Thu, 15 Jan 2015 - 15:00) *
QUOTE (misterMan @ Thu, 15 Jan 2015 - 14:39) *
although it did occur in a 'Non-motorway special road' if that makes any difference? Where the speed limit is specified as 70mph and traffic is restricted (no learners, cyclists etc).
Didn't know one of them existed

There are a few

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_road

AIUI (and I'm prepared to be corrected) a speeding offence on a non-motorway special road would still get an SP50 endorsement because it's an offence under Section 17 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act, rather than Section 89.

Which road was it?
misterMan
QUOTE (Aretnap @ Thu, 15 Jan 2015 - 16:53) *
QUOTE (martinbiz @ Thu, 15 Jan 2015 - 15:00) *
QUOTE (misterMan @ Thu, 15 Jan 2015 - 14:39) *
although it did occur in a 'Non-motorway special road' if that makes any difference? Where the speed limit is specified as 70mph and traffic is restricted (no learners, cyclists etc).
Didn't know one of them existed

There are a few

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_road

AIUI (and I'm prepared to be corrected) a speeding offence on a non-motorway special road would still get an SP50 endorsement because it's an offence under Section 17 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act, rather than Section 89.

Which road was it?


A55 North Wales, Conwy Tunnel.
4x4x4
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 15 Jan 2015 - 10:49) *
('Hoist by his own petard' means he blew himself up), so suspect you misheard him.
Oh I don't know, in the circumstances it seems rather apt don't you think ? rolleyes.gif
misterMan
I'd just like to bump this as my case was heard today at court. I pleaded guilty by post but didn't attend. The case has been adjourned as they want me to be present as they'll be disqualififying me due to totting up and I'm likely to receive a 6 month ban.

My licence is clean at the moment (I have 3 points expired I've not paid to have removed yet). I gave them a personal mitigation statement explaining that my job requires me to work out of hours and weekends and I feel my car is a necessity. The definition of exceptional hardship doesn't really cover that.

I can't understand how they'd disqualify under totting up - I'm assuming they want to issue me with over 12 points? Is this a bit excessive? I've seen other threads where the defendent has received no more than 28 days and a small fine (and no points).

Should I get legal advice or is it all a bit too late now that I've already pleaded guilty?
Kickaha
Check with the DVLA to see if you have any points that you are not aware of.
misterMan
QUOTE (Kickaha @ Thu, 16 Jul 2015 - 17:21) *
Check with the DVLA to see if you have any points that you are not aware of.


Only the 3 expired points already mentioned
Jlc
An adjournment was odds on - I suspect it is to consider the ban rather than totting.
peterguk
QUOTE (misterMan @ Thu, 16 Jul 2015 - 17:07) *
as they'll be disqualififying me due to totting up


QUOTE (misterMan @ Thu, 16 Jul 2015 - 17:07) *
My licence is clean at the moment


Definitly not a totting ban.
The Rookie
It's odds on certainty the ban is for the alleged soeed (which is to be expected), whatever you were told (over the phone by some pen pushing clerk?)
misterMan
I just spoke to what I assume was a court clerk. I think I'll need to see what comes through the post. She defintiely said it was a totting up charge which really worries me as they've dumped 12 points on me for this offence which does seem a tad excessive. Would you suggest legal representation/advice? I can't really afford it, but neither can I afford to be without my car for 6 months. I would obviously prefer a discretionary disqualification as opposed to this ban on TT.
gilan02
Don't panic, you are not getting 12 points from what you have told us.
BaggieBoy
The maximum points for a speeding offence is 6. It can't be totting.
misterMan
Hmm. So either the clerk has it wrong and I will be disqualified with no points as expected (and hoped) or they are charging me for something else in addition to the speeding.
BaggieBoy
If the summons said speeding, they can't just change the charge.
southpaw82
QUOTE (misterMan @ Thu, 16 Jul 2015 - 19:02) *
So either the clerk has it wrong

You think? Time and time again we say to people that court clerks are not lawyers and often don't have a clue what they're talking about.
The Rookie
And as most people need telling twice to believe it..... Court clerks are just secretaries, she probably made 2+2=5 as most bans are probably for totting.

You cannot get 12 points for the offence, a ban was always pretty much certain for the single offence, so when 2+2=4 it's probably that they are 'considering' a ban for the single offence.
Jlc
Just to be tripley sure - have you actually checked the number of points on your licence via the DVLA online system?
misterMan
Tripley checked! Still 0 points with 3 expired (expired in Jan this year removed Jan 2016)


You have
0 current penalty points

SP30 Penalty points: 3
Offence date: 30 Jan 2012 Expired
Expiry date: 30 Jan 2015
Removal date: 30 Jan 2016
Offence details
SP30: Exceeding statutory speed limit on a public road
Penalty points: 3


Whilst I appreciate the court clerk (or whoever it was I spoke to on the phone) wasn't a legal professional, I would like to think they at least have access to the facts (notes from the hearing, reasons for adjournment) before telling me the information I asked for.

I will phone them again today and press for further information - I might be lucky enough to speak with someone else.

Assuming she has her facts wrong and the adjournment for my appearance in court is so they can disqualify me (which as stated, I'm expecting at least a short term ban - 4 weeks'ish, plus a hefty fine) - I would prefer not to attend court, grovelling to some magistrate and just accept the ban by post - would anyone advise against this and if so, what reasons would make you want to go to court if you know you're likely to get banned and fined?
Jlc
QUOTE (misterMan @ Fri, 17 Jul 2015 - 09:02) *
I would prefer not to attend court

You can either attend or send legal representation. If you do not attend then they could put an arrest warrant out for you.

Any ban is immediate which is the primary reason why you (or your rep) needs to be there.

QUOTE (misterMan @ Fri, 17 Jul 2015 - 09:02) *
Tripley checked! Still 0 points with 3 expired (expired in Jan this year removed Jan 2016)

Ok, you want be totting.
misterMan
Just spoken with the same woman this morning who double checked and has now said it isn't a ban due to totting up, just excessive speed and she confirmed the ban would therefore not be as long as the 6 months she told me yesterday. rolleyes.gif
Logician
You were probably spoken to not by a court clerk but by a clerk who works in the court office, a subtle but important distinction. As probably the majority of disqualifications are for totting not for an individual offence, she probably simply made a wrong assumption, the important message she was conveying was to attend court. In the past those who failed to attend court when they were told to were liable to be arrested and brought to court, as courts were loth to disqualify drivers in their absence because they might immediately be committing an offence by driving, unaware of the disqualification. That is unlikely to happen now, but if you do not attend you should write to the court stating that you will not be attending but you understand that you may be disqualified in your absence and you will not drive until you know the outcome of the hearing. Nevertheless, you are unlikely to get the best outcome that way, you are not in fact expected to grovel but some expression of contrition and personal explanation of why disqualification would hit you hard would show you take this seriously. On the other hand, not bothering to attend court after being told to and for no particular reason shows the reverse and that may affect the length of the disqualification.
misterMan
Thanks for the sage advice Logician, I'll take on board what you say about attending (I just don't like the idea of explaining myself to strangers, I have a hard enough time n front of people I do know).
Spenny
QUOTE (misterMan @ Fri, 17 Jul 2015 - 10:07) *
Thanks for the sage advice Logician, I'll take on board what you say about attending (I just don't like the idea of explaining myself to strangers, I have a hard enough time n front of people I do know).

That's the idea. The point is to look you in the eye and see what your attitude is. The usual idea is that you go along, don't make excuses, admit it was a moment of foolishness, generally look miserable and contrite, it will go a long way to getting the magistrates on your side. Go along with a "do your worst" attitude, then they may be inclined to oblige. Your nervousness and uncomfortableness is an advantage!

Think of it as an opportunity to improve your position - a ban is not a given, and it can be very short.
CuriousOrange
For completeness, although you triply checked that you have a clean licence, it should've been pointed out to you that it's points at the time of the offence that counts, not at the time of conviction. As your points expired two weeks after the offence, you still have three points from the point of view of this court case. As such, the question isn't 'can they give you twelve points' it's 'can they give you nine?'

You're still safe from a totting ban, since six is the maximum number of points they can give for speeding.

I point it out since if you did get six points for this (or for some other offence in future), it's important to realise that you'll be at risk of a totting ban if e.g. you commit a similar offence within three years, even if the court hearing is after the points expire and you think your licence is clean.
misterMan
Thanks all, I shall update the thread in August after the next hearing.
misterMan
Update: £300 fine, £31 "victims surcharge", £85 costs. 56 day ban. Ouch!
AntonyMMM
Given the speed - not an unexpected result.
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