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FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
mark7144
Hello,

I've received a £65 penalty (if paid early) for not going through one of those width restricted roads that try and prevent bigger vehicles to continue. This happened by mistake as I was following the flow of traffic and the van ahead decided to go through the middle.

"Failing to comply with a sign indicating that vehicular traffic must pass to the specified side of the sign"

Do I have any case for an appeal considering it's clear this is a mistake as my small car would easily fit through the restricted side? And the fact I was following the traffic?

Please see attached the scan of the PCN and the photo evidence.
southpaw82
No. However, you may have other avenues of appeal. Please post all of the PCN.
mark7144
Thanks for your quick reply. I've now attached the full PCN to the first post.
Incandescent
You say "flow of traffic" but I see only two vehicles in the photos, yours and the white van. Hardly a credible excuse, surely ? The van will have got a PCN too.

Difficult to see any credible appeal here. OK it was a mistake, but that's what councils want, plenty of them, so they can collect lots of dosh ! Only appeal with any credibility would be if signs and road markings are missing or defaced.
mark7144
I suppose it's not the most accurate way of putting it.

It's just that I was driving in a new area and therefore I felt it safest to follow the card ahead. Not really a conscious choice but what I feel is a sensible default auto-pilot in a situation like that. I wish proving it as an innocent mistake meant something to councils. I'm not asking them to take my word for it, the photo evidence is right there, my car had no problem fitting through the side lane but that counts for nothing sad.gif
PASTMYBEST
at least its decriminalized could have been undue care in the old days
Steve_999
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 6 Jan 2015 - 23:59) *
at least its decriminalized could have been undue care in the old days


Or even without due care. . .
mark7144
So I take it there's nothing I can do?
StuartBu
http://goo.gl/maps/vrv4Y

Can someone explain what the point of these bits of furniture are for . I presume if your vehicle ( delivery vans,refuse lorries,fire engines etc ) can't get through the side bits you can use the wider centre section or go in via a side road if possible.
mark7144
Having looked at Google Maps there, is it worth mentioning there is only one sign and it appears almost immediately after you turn into the road? I think it's possible I missed that sign due to the van ahead. Even if I had seen it, due to the van, it might have been literally just a second before the point of no return.
PASTMYBEST
This can only be traffic calming, and very poor at that it's a 20mph vone also a weight limitso it's acctualy only there as a cash cow. need the experts now but is'nt thier something in regs/guidlines about using camara enforcement in this way
RD400E
A previous victim had his appeal upheld. In the councils reply they also stated that an area of chevrons bordered by solid white lines may not be crossed. That was May 2014 in this topic >

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry959248

Your image above clearly shows the lines have been altered and there is no longer a solid white border around the chevrons, it's a bit of a contradiction from the council and I wonder how they would explain this total fubar!

I seem to recall there are other issues with appropriate signage as from the direction you entered the restriction is only 40 meters from the junction.

Point C on the representations section has also got the council in a mess, see the same topic above, plus plenty more info available if you use the forums search facility!
Incandescent
So there is hope for the OP but it will only be decided one way or the other at PATAS with the full PCN amount in play, the discount option will be lost.
crashdetective
QUOTE (StuartBu @ Wed, 7 Jan 2015 - 11:55) *
http://goo.gl/maps/vrv4Y

Can someone explain what the point of these bits of furniture are for . I presume if your vehicle ( delivery vans,refuse lorries,fire engines etc ) can't get through the side bits you can use the wider centre section or go in via a side road if possible.


Plebs to the left and important people down the middle?
Incandescent
Only authorised vehicles are allowed through the middle (wide section), like ambulances and fire engines, and no doubt the cars of local councillors and nomenclatura, (no, surely not !!). So if you're not authorised you get a PCN, simple.

The whole point of these pinch points is to stop HGVs and other commercial traffic from rat-running via the street concerned. This then begs the question as to why PCNs are issued to narrow and small vehicle at all . Of course we all know it is for the PCN penalty income from simple mistakes that counts for everything these days.
SatNavSam
Just a thought. The pictures don't show the signs the OP is supposed to have contravened, therefore they don't prove the offence.

Any scope on that count?
StuartBu
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 7 Jan 2015 - 20:21) *
Only authorised vehicles are allowed through the middle (wide section), like ambulances and fire engines, and no doubt the cars of local councillors and nomenclatura, (no, surely not !!). So if you're not authorised you get a PCN, simple.

The whole point of these pinch points is to stop HGVs and other commercial traffic from rat-running via the street concerned. This then begs the question as to why PCNs are issued to narrow and small vehicle at all . Of course we all know it is for the PCN penalty income from simple mistakes that counts for everything these days.


So what if you are driving something like a delivery lorry ...what do you do ..
Incandescent
QUOTE (StuartBu @ Wed, 7 Jan 2015 - 22:08) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 7 Jan 2015 - 20:21) *
Only authorised vehicles are allowed through the middle (wide section), like ambulances and fire engines, and no doubt the cars of local councillors and nomenclatura, (no, surely not !!). So if you're not authorised you get a PCN, simple.

The whole point of these pinch points is to stop HGVs and other commercial traffic from rat-running via the street concerned. This then begs the question as to why PCNs are issued to narrow and small vehicle at all . Of course we all know it is for the PCN penalty income from simple mistakes that counts for everything these days.


So what if you are driving something like a delivery lorry ...what do you do ..

If delivery lorries are "authorised", they can go through the wide section. Everything depends on what the TRO says.
mark7144
Thank you everyone for your help.
Hippocrates
QUOTE (mark7144 @ Tue, 6 Jan 2015 - 22:03) *
Thanks for your quick reply. I've now attached the full PCN to the first post.

1. The PCN appears to conflate the two 28 days' periods re the service of a Charge Certificate: one has to ask to which period are they referring? (The law is an ass in this regard anyway but it states that the PCN must state it may be served re the end of the payment period, not the reps. period and certainly not a conflation of the two, as in this PCN.)

(8)A penalty charge notice under this section must—

(a)state—

(i)the grounds on which the council or, as the case may be, Transport for London believe that the penalty charge is payable with respect to the vehicle;

(ii)the amount of the penalty charge which is payable;

(iii)that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice;

(iv)that if the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of the notice, the amount of the penalty charge will be reduced by the specified proportion;

(v)that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an increased charge may be payable;

(vi)the amount of the increased charge;

(vii)the address to which payment of the penalty charge must be sent; and

(viii)that the person on whom the notice is served may be entitled to make representations under paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to this Act; and

(b)specify the form in which any such representations are to be made.

2. Mitigating circumstances/compelling reasons: stretching it a bit.

3. TWOC: try to recreate the situation as found in this case without spelling it out for them and without mentioning it either.

2110212199

http://www.patasregistersofappeals.org.uk/

4. IMO the PCN is compliant otherwise and clearly states the reps. period.
mark7144
Thanks Hippo.

I've now added the Charge Certificate issue. And you may have missed it but I've already referenced the case you mentioned in the appeal I sent you under 6A. Funnily enough, this idea was from one of your older posts which referenced the same case.

I'll post my lengthy appeal on this forum when I have a result, if it's positive. Let's see what happens smile.gif
Hippocrates
Good luck. They have changed much of their paperwork since June 2013 but not this contravention's PCN.

QUOTE (mark7144 @ Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 15:12) *
Thanks Hippo.

I've now added the Charge Certificate issue. And you may have missed it but I've already referenced the case you mentioned in the appeal I sent you under 6A. Funnily enough, this idea was from one of your older posts which referenced the same case.

I'll post my lengthy appeal on this forum when I have a result, if it's positive. Let's see what happens smile.gif

I would omit the case as it spells it out for them. You want them to provide a similar response. So don't give them the answer.
mark7144
Sorry, I meant I used the case to write my own version of it, not explicitly reference it.

But in general is it good to reference cases to reinforce a point? Like Carey v TfL and Grimwood v Croydon? That's the impression the forum has given me anyway.
Hippocrates
QUOTE (mark7144 @ Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 15:55) *
Sorry, I meant I used the case to write my own version of it, not explicitly reference it.

But in general is it good to reference cases to reinforce a point? Like Carey v TfL and Grimwood v Croydon? That's the impression the forum has given me anyway.

Depends entirely on the circumstances. In your case, you want them to repeat their error as per the said case. If you direct them to it, they will not. So, an opportunity will have been missed.
mark7144
I just want to check something in case I'm misunderstanding.

I'm assuming it's fine to point out the various issues with the PCN and circumstances of the contravention in the initial appeal to the council? Or am I supposed to keep all this hidden with the assumption it goes to an adjudicator and then surprise them at that stage? The appeal I sent you over PM is for the council.

My plan is provide so many examples with what's wrong with their PCN and the circumstances that they will bail at the last minute before it gets to an adjudicator.
Hippocrates
QUOTE (mark7144 @ Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 16:10) *
I just want to check something in case I'm misunderstanding.

I'm assuming it's fine to point out the various issues with the PCN and circumstances of the contravention in the initial appeal to the council? Or am I supposed to keep all this hidden with the assumption it goes to an adjudicator and then surprise them at that stage? The appeal I sent you over PM is for the council.

My plan is provide so many examples with what's wrong with their PCN and the circumstances that they will bail at the last minute before it gets to an adjudicator.

Correct. To do the opposite will pi££ off an adjudicator and questions will be asked and rightly so.
mark7144
Thanks but why would pointing out all the issues with the PCN piss off an adjudicator? Looking at past cases, it seems the technical errors in PCNs have been the sole reason for successful appeals.
Hippocrates
QUOTE (mark7144 @ Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 16:22) *
Thanks but why would pointing out all the issues with the PCN piss off an adjudicator? Looking at past cases, it seems the technical errors in PCNs have been the sole reason for successful appeals.

I meant not pointing them put out! You make all valid arguments ab initio.
mark7144
Ah I get you. Thank you.

So I will go ahead and send the council my lengthy appeal tomorrow with a total of 9 points of defence including 4 that refer to the technical validity of the PCN. smile.gif
Hippocrates
QUOTE (mark7144 @ Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 17:36) *
Ah I get you. Thank you.

So I will go ahead and send the council my lengthy appeal tomorrow with a total of 9 points of defence including 4 that refer to the technical validity of the PCN. smile.gif

If you want to keep it confidential, mail me first for me to check. But, I am abroad tomorrow. Til evening.
mark7144
Sent! Thank you smile.gif
mark7144
The council accepted my appeal. Thank you everyone for all your help.

My appeal

QUOTE
Dear Islington Council,

I wish to appeal PCN (Ref: ISXXXXXX) on the basis that the contravention did not occur.

Please consider the following points and respond to each individually:

1) I do not believe that the alleged sign was visible at the location at the time of the alleged offence. The images and video provided show the back of a sign but do not show the sign face. I therefore conclude that the alleged sign was not visible or had been obscured from view.

2) The Traffic Signs Manual (Chapter 3) states that the minimum visibility for signage in this situation is 45m on a 20mph road. The alleged keep left sign is located only 41m from the junction with Essex Road.

I’m aware that there is a width restriction sign at the junction but this provides no warning of the unusual and unexpected close proximity of the restricted lane. Therefore, I do not consider this adequate advance warning of the immediate requirement to keep left upon entering Englefield Road.

3) Furthermore, in reference to cases Carey v TfL and Grimwood v Croydon, it is unreasonable to expect a motorist to digest the alleged keep left sign, along with the numerous additional signs in close proximity, considering the distance between the sign and junction. Those additional signs include a camera enforced speeding sign, a width limit sign, a weight restriction sign, a 20mph zone sign, along with the give way marking and the additional obstacle of the parked cars protruding out in front of the width restricted lane.

4) The central area is not a raised surface to distinguish it from a normal through-way and yet this is in fact the case with the same traffic calming measure on the adjacent road (Ockendon Road). This lack of distinction on the road surface is an additional cause of confusion with such a short space of time to react. Even more so in this case where the Van ahead dramatically swerved into the middle lane giving the impression the driver was avoiding an object on the road (please refer to video evidence).

5) The Traffic Signs Manual (Chapter 4) states that the hatched markings allow for vehicular traffic to enter if the area is bordered by a broken line and the driver sees it as safe to do so, which is contradictory to the alleged sign. Even if this exception does not apply to the particular design used at Englefield Road, I would argue that this is just another piece of information to digest in a short space of time and a further cause of confusion. It also reiterates the case for a central raised surface which would clearly remove the need for the driver to think about rules and exceptions of different hatched marking designs.

6) In reference to the Local Authorities and Transport Act 2003, I believe the Penalty Charge Notice itself was unenforceable based on:

a) The third ground of appeal (box C on the PCN) inaccurately reflects the statutory ground. It is not correct to require an insurance claim or crime report when making an representation on this basis. For example if a friend had taken the keys to the car without consent. Whilst it may be that a local authority would not accept a representation made on this basis without a crime report, there is no obligation on a registered keeper to provide a crime report when relying on this ground of appeal.

b) The Penalty Charge Notice does not indicate that I can present “compelling reasons” as a challenge against the PCN. Whilst the PCN does mention “mitigating circumstances”, I refer you to the case against the London Borough of Harrow where the adjudicator ruled that by failing to explicitly mention “compelling reasons”, the PCN was unenforceable.

c) The Penalty Charge Notice appears to conflate the two 28 days’ periods regarding the service of a Charge Certificate. The PCN must state it may be served at the end of the payment period, not the representations period and neither a conflation of the two, as it is in this PCN.

In consideration of the above, I trust you will cancel the PCN forthwith.


Council's reply

They first sent me an email asking for the PCN and PATAS case references that I mentioned. I provided those as requested (Evans v Harrow: 2080351250, Carey v Transport for London: 2060537813, Grimwood v Croydon: 199019516AI). They then allowed the appeal with the email below.

QUOTE
Acceptance of Representations:

Thank you for providing the requested document and information.

The Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) was issued for failing to comply with a sign indicating that vehicular traffic must pass to the specified side of the sign.

Having examined the PCN you have sent in to us, I can see that it was an old style PCN which was discontinued in 2013. The document was undated in 2014 and you should have received the new version which unfortunately you did not. Due to this error, I have cancelled the PCN and can only apologise for the inconvenience caused by this matter.

I will therefore formally accept your representations and as the ticket has now been cancelled, there is no need for you to take any further action.
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