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TheStig
Just received a PCN from Birmingham City Council.

According to the letter, my vehicle was sighted at 15:57, with a ticket expiry time of 15:25. The PCN gives the ticket number, registration no and tax disc no/expiry date.

My vehicle was parked at the given location. I arrived at 14:25 and paid for 2 hours' parking, which would have taken the expiry time to 16:25, not 15:25. Obviously I no longer have the ticket after a week so I can't cross-reference it.

The PCN further states that "the Civil Enforcement Officer [...] attempted to serve a PCN by affixing it to the vehicle or giving it to the person in charge of the vehicle by was prevented from doing so by some person".

The photograph shows my vehicle parked in a bay, with the time 15:57 superimposed on it. It does not show the ticket which was displayed. A white rectangle is visible in the bottom corner of the windscreen (the parking ticket itself) but the printing on the ticket is not visible.

So, where do I stand?
DancingDad
Best post up the PCN

Seems like a mismatch in stories here.

You paid for a P&D but cannot prove time.
CEO believed it had expired and took photos but did not serve the PCN

So what happened to prevent the CEO serving the PCN?
TheStig
Scanner isn't working atm. If I can kick it into submission I'll scan, wash and post.

My understanding is that unless the PCN is attached to the vehicle or handed to the driver it isn't "served".

There is no photo of the P&D ticket in the windscreen, although it's visible on the shot showing the vehicle (the printing on it isn't).

Sounds to me like someone's made a cock-up.
Bogsy
QUOTE (TheStig @ Mon, 22 Dec 2014 - 17:10) *
My understanding is that unless the PCN is attached to the vehicle or handed to the driver it isn't "served".


That's true but they can then serve a postal PCN. If you believe the contravention did not occur then you must appeal and ask the council to prove that the contravention did occur. Not easy for them to do if they have no photo of the alleged expired ticket. It'll be your word against that of a CEO and adjudicator's usually favour the public if they come across as honest and credible at a hearing.
TheStig
Meant to say, the car is registered in the name of my limited company, not in my personal name. The PCN came through to the Ltd company. Does this make a difference?
Incandescent
I think we really do need to see the PCN which has been posted rather than served to the car or driver at the roadside. We need this to establish the legal position. I suspect it is CCTV-generated.

So please post the PCN, all sides, with PCN Number and car/address details blanked out. However, don't run over the statutory periods for appealing.
TheStig
Sounds fair enough. Will have to coax the scanner into working.
TheStig
Ok, got the scanner to work. The PCN itself (redacted):

Click to view attachment

And the "evidence", which consists of a single photo of my vehicle (number plate blanked out):

Click to view attachment

The photo appears to have been taken with a hand-held camera, not with a fixed CCTV installation. The camera would have been in the middle of the road.
hcandersen
Shall we just cut to the chase. This postal PCN was served because the CEO claims that they were interfered with while carrying out their lawful duty. If you know anything about this, don't mess about.

But if you don't, then let's have a clear statement to this effect.

As regards the contravention, your problem is that you cannot introduce any hard evidence to support your case i.e. a P&D ticket which expired at 16.25 whereas the authority have clear statements from the CEO that a specified P&D was seen and that this expired at 15.25.

You have no personal liability in this matter, only the company are liable. In this respect, only an authorised officer of the company may make representations, your role as driver does not qualify you In this regard.
Bogsy
The postal PCN has been served because the CEO claims they were prevented from serving it due to force, threats of force, obstruction or violence. However, if all that happened is that the vehicle was driven away then you have legitimate grounds of appeal.
Incandescent
So could OP give some idea of when he returned to the vehicle.

If it was after 16.00, but before his ticket expired at 16.25 as he claims, and there was no PCN attached to the car, then something strange has gone on. What we do know is that the parking ticket was on display, and the CEO claims it had 15.25 on it when viewed at well past this time. So a PCN could have been easily issued and fixed to the car.

So why issue a Reg 10 PCN ? Something not right here, I think, but where the answer lies is not yet clear. It seems to me that the OP needs to challenge this PCN and if rejected, to request the CEO notes on the matter. The OP might also check to make sure he really did pay for 2 hours, and not overpay for one hour, by either not putting in enough money, OR a coin got rejected, but was not noticed at the time. Most machines issue the next time below, and give a warning of overpayment, but so many people don't look at the display; they pay, they get a ticket, and don't inspect it too closely.

DancingDad
The CEO made note of a P&D ticket number and expiry time. Which would suggest to an adjudicator that the allegation of overstaying is correct. Without the actual P&D that is likely to be found as fact. Given the machines B'ham use now in many areas, I would not be surprised if they could show a print out of the day's records identifying the exact ticket details but am not sure. Worth asking.

I think it will come down to why or how the CEO was prevented and you must be honest about that to persuade an adjudicator that it wasn't you and that the CEO simply took advantage of the postal option without good reason.
TheStig
So if, hypothetically, the driver of the car had simply driven off before the ticket had been issued (where "issued" means attached to the vehicle or handed to the driver) then sending a PCN by post would not be valid?

This isn't what happened (I returned to the vehicle at around 4:20pm with a few minutes left to run). But I'm trying to anticipate what the CEO is likely to claim happened.

From what I can see, it goes in my favour that the CEO failed to obtain a photograph of the expired ticket despite claiming to have written down the details. Unfortunately because I discarded the ticket when I got home I can't produce this as evidence.
DancingDad
QUOTE (TheStig @ Tue, 23 Dec 2014 - 09:53) *
So if, hypothetically, the driver of the car had simply driven off before the ticket had been issued (where "issued" means attached to the vehicle or handed to the driver) then sending a PCN by post would not be valid?

This isn't what happened (I returned to the vehicle at around 4:20pm with a few minutes left to run). But I'm trying to anticipate what the CEO is likely to claim happened.

From what I can see, it goes in my favour that the CEO failed to obtain a photograph of the expired ticket despite claiming to have written down the details. Unfortunately because I discarded the ticket when I got home I can't produce this as evidence.


No, a drive off would be counted as prevention though as Bogsy pointed out, they do not allege this specifically.

I've got two assumptions.
One that the CEO was starting to prepare a PCN and some oik came along and started to give them a hard time so they backed off.
Two that the CEO was being lazy, took a few details and then stuffed them into the system for the postal.

I'll bet the first one is what will be shown in CEO notes though would be very nice if notes said driver returned and drove away given your side of events.
As and when you challenge, you must ask for CEO notes.
Incandescent
Agree, and you definitely need to appeal this one
TheStig
Will get the representations to them after the xmas rush then. It says I have 28 days from the date of service (and I have the envelope to prove the date of service).

Is there a template letter or similar that I can use?

Finally, the matter of the limited company. It's my limited company and I'm the director. So presumably that makes me an "authorised agent" of the company?
hcandersen
Yes, and you should sign yourself as Director of the company.

The period for making reps is 28 days beginning on and not from the date of service.


DancingDad
Date of Service will be assumed as 23rd Dec 14 so use that as Day 1

What is the postal date on the envelope?

Any chance of seeing the rest of the PCN. We don't often see postals from Birmingham so worth checking the wording.
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