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FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
Andy from up north
Hi, today I received a demand from Rossendales bailiffs for £187 for an outstanding parking ticket from sept 2012, is there a time limit that the council or rossendales have to claim this by, also I believe that they have made a mistake because although I did get quite a few parking tickets in the past, I believe that I paid them all and either rossendales or the council have messed up the paperwork and they're asking for payment again on a ticket that's already been paid, how can they wait over two years to chase this up and are they allowed to. Where do I stand on this please, I haven't any receipts from payments so it could be pretty much their word against mine, any help would be much appreciated. Thanks.
Mr Mustard
Let me take a guess that this is a Westminster PCN. I have two other motorists with demand letters for PCN going back to 2011 & 2012. If you look carefully at the letter you will find that it is from Rossendales Collect Ltd not Rossendales Bailiffs and that means they are most unlikely to visit you and they won't have any bailiff powers if they do. The warrant will have expired once 12 months old and the council are unlikely to have paid £7 to extend it. I suspect (and I happen to be a debt collector) that unpaid PCN are being given a last shake to try and squeeze the last penny out of them and Rossendales will be on a large commission for each one they bluff into paying.

The letter probably threatens the following dire consequences of non-payment:

- A charging order on your property (so that they get paid when you sell your house or flat)
- An attachment of earnings order (to take money from your pay)
- A third party debt order (to collect from someone else who owes you money - how would they know who owes you money?)
- An application for an order to attend Court for question

Westminster Council have told me they did none of those 4 things in the year to March 14 as they are not part of the council's recovery process so they look like empty threats to me from Rossendales.

Rossendales may well phone you. You have two choices. Say nothing & put the phone down and then block future calls if you can or ask them to prove the debt by supplying the following copy documents

1. PCN
2. Notice to Owner
3. Charge Certificate
4. Order for Recovery.
5. Date Court approved a warrant.
6. All warrants
7. Proof of their appointment

and I doubt they will be bothered and even if they are you can simply say, once you see the papers, that the warrant has expired and your Human Rights have been breached by them suddenly chasing you after all this time. It is also against the London Councils guidance that says that any PCN which has a delay of more than 6 months at any stage of the process, should be cancelled (except the bailiff who gets 12 months by law) and the legal process doesn't envisage any recovery action after bailiff failure to collect.
Enceladus
It would be best if you could post up a scrubbed scan of all pages of the letter for scrutiny. Scrubbed = obscure or redact your name & address, the PCN number and the vehicle reg if applicable. Please leave everything else visible.

Some judiciously cut-up pieces of post-it note are good for obscuring if you don't want to bother with Microsoft Paint or similar. Open a free basic account with a 3rd party hosting site such as http://tinypic.com, there are numerous others. Dropbox is currently popular. Upload your scans to the host and then copy and paste the provided [img] links into your posts on here. Et voilà, the images will be visible on the forum.

If the demand turns out be legit then, first thing Monday morning, please ring the Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC) at Northampton County Court.
TEC phone: 0300-123 1059, 01604-619 450. They open at 09:00.
Establish the date the Order for Recovery was authorised?
The date of the warrant?
Against what address, on the warrant? (IE current or some previous address(es)?)
Whether or not the warrant has ever been reissued against your current address? And when?
The PCN number if you don't have it?
And which set of forms you need to submit? (Witness Statement (TE9) & Out of Time application (TE7) or Statutory Declaration (PE3) & Out of Time application (PE2)).
Ask them to email the forms.

And report back as a matter of urgency.
Andy from up north
Hi Mr Mustard and Enceladus, thanks for your quick replies, Enceladus, I will upload a copy of the letter like you said later on today, I have to go to work soon and Mr Mustard, it isn't a Westminster ticket, I live in Grimsby, don't know if that will have any bearing on the information you gave me but I'll upload the letter anyway so you can have a look. Thank-you for your help.
Andy from up north
Hi Mr Mustard and Enceladus, this is the copy of the letter they sent me,

.


Also, I have some additional information which I think might help my cause.
In the enforcement details box where it says where the offence took place, there is no recorded time and also I remember the only altercation I have had with a traffic warden down that street was when I had pulled up at a newsagents on my way to work to buy a paper, I was literally parked there for two minutes, when I came out a female traffic warden was walking up about 20 yards away from my car, I quickly got to my car and shouted to her sorry I was just getting a paper, I'm off now, she then started to give me a lecture and chastise me like some of them do thinking they're telling off a small child or something so I said to her yeah whatever and started to get into my car, so because I wasn't prepared to stand there and take my telling off she said right if your gonna be like that I'll give you a ticket and took her book out as I proceeded to drive away. So anyway my point is, at no point did she take any photographic evidence of the said "offence" and she didn't even get to stick the ticket on my windscreen. Do you think this will help, I am almost 100% sure that this is the one that they're after but havn't they got to provide photographic evidence. Thanks in advance for your continued help.
Incandescent
If this was, indeed the case, it is an unlawful issue of a PCN, because the legislation only allows a PCN to be sent by post following a drive-away, if the PCN was in the course of preparation. The CEO is not allowed to create a PCN after the driver has driven off. However, it is your word against the CEO. and anyway, we are well beyond any adjudication possibilities.

What could, of course, have happened is the CEO created a PCN and threw it away/destroyed it and wrote up notes that state "handed to driver".

Photographic evidence is not a legal requirement for Reg 9 PCNs as this would have been.

The only thing puzzling me is why you failed to get the Notice to Owner, the Charge Certificate, and the Order for Recovery. One going astray can be understood, but all three ? Are you sure your V5 registration document was up-to-date at the time ?

There is a website for bailiff problems - www.bailiffadviceonline.co.uk A small fee is payable, but much, much, less than the bailiffs will charge once they get going.
Mr Mustard
Forget my previous post when I was guessing what happened unless you happen to have 2011 Westminster PCNs come back to haunt you.

We haven't seen the postal PCN but the adress of Abbey Rd in the context of NE Lincolnshire is too vague a locus to tell the Owner of the Vehicle where the driver made the alleged contravention.
Andy from up north
So, considering my options, do you think I've got any grounds on which to refuse to pay this. I was hoping the length of time it's took them to chase it up would be a big factor in my favour or is there no time limit.
Do you think a trip to the C.A.B. would be any good or even going into the municipal offices and demanding that they provide some proof of this offence even happening considering I'm pretty sure they've got no photographic evidence.
Also, the letter states that I have got till the 26th dec to make arrangements to pay, I've been told to offer to pay it at £5 a week and they can't legally refuse this as it's an offer of payment, does anyone know if this is true.
Thanks Incandescent, I have that link for the bailiff website, I will give them a go on Tuesday, I'm at work from 6 till late tomorrow and won't be able to get online.
Enceladus
You have left the PCN number and vehicle reg in the document posted. Ideally you should obscure it, but it's up to you.
Can we please see the other side.

OK. You appear to have received a legitimate bailiff enforcement notice. My advice above still stands. Ring the TEC first thing in the morning. Report back with the info. You objective is to get a Witness Statement and Out of Time application submitted well before 16:00pm tomorrow Monday. Submit and any bailiff enforcement will be suspended pending the decision of the TEC.

It is vital that you get the OOT optimised to maximise your chances of acceptance. Else we will be looking at an N244 review application. So post up a draft of what you intend to say.

That's what you need to do and don't get sidetracked from it. However there appears to be something wrong with the timings. I would expect that any Order for Recovery and subsequent warrant for a Sep 2102 PCN to have been granted well before June 2013. And therefore the warrant would be now time expired.

Since you did not receive the original PCN, Charge Certificate and Order for Recovery etc., then might it be possible that the PCN etc has been sent somewhere else? Such as a previous owner or a hire company maybe? The TEC information, might also help us understand what is going on.

Are you the RK (Registered Keeper) of the vehicle?
Was it correctly registered to you at your address on 18/09/2012?
Have you move address at anytime since or shortly before?

The council only seem to have one evidence photo on the website. It is not very helpful. It shows a white van but no reg plate visible. Is your vehicle a red Vauxhall Vectra?

Andy from up north
Hi again Enceladus, the other side of the letter just says what their course of action can be if I don't pay and information on how to pay, nothing more really, I will do my best to do what you are asking but it might be difficult as I'm lorry driving tomorrow, I see she did actually take a photo as well, she's obviously taken a pic of where I was allegedly parked after I had driven off, does this really count as evidence of an offence? Anyway, I'll do my best to get that done and let you know the outcome, thanks again for your help, much appreciated.
p.s. yes I was the registered keeper at the same address.
Also, sorry to be a pain but have you any information regarding this bit......
Also, the letter states that I have got till the 26th dec to make arrangements to pay, I've been told to offer to pay it at £5 a week and they can't legally refuse this as it's an offer of payment, does anyone know if this is true
Enceladus
Your problem is that Rosendales have given you until the 26th. They could turn up and clamp your vehicle any time after that. Until we know otherwise for certain we will have to proceed on the basis that a valid enforceable warrant is in place.

I am not sure when the Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court is open over Christmas, but certainly not on Christmas day and Boxing day and possibly not on Christmas Eve. And you also need somebody to be on duty in the council to actually call off the bailiff. If you submit a properly completed Witness Statement (form TE9) and Out/Extension Of Time (form TE7) application to the TEC before 4pm on a working day, the court will process it that day. The council will then be informed and they are obliged to call off their agents, the bailiffs. The council are supposed to do that the same day but mostly can't be bothered until the next day. All bailiff action has to cease until the TEC has made a decision on your Out of Time application. That is 19 working days away.

Once you get your OOT accepted the WS will be processed, the warrant and Charge certificates will be revoked and the Council will have to serve a fresh PCN in order to continue to enforce. You can then challenge and appeal in the normal manner.

So if you really cannot get it done on Monday, then certainly get it done on Tuesday. At least try and ring the TEC tomorrow and get the answers. BTW it is not the responsibility of the TEC to supply copies of documents so don't ask.

The forms themselves are not complicated. You can also download the forms yourself and you can submit them by email or fax.
Andy from up north
Thanks again Enceladus, I've just printed this whole thread so I can take it to work with me tomorrow and I'll definitely be giving them a ring. Do you know anything about them not being able to refuse any offer of payment even if they deem it to be too small, it's what someone told me the other day and I've heard it said before.
Mr Mustard
An offer to pay by instalments will not force stop the enforcement process unless the bailiff is happy to accept instalments and you must then pay them all on time without being chased.
hcandersen
The letter refers to Rossendales enforcing a warrant. You have all the details you need and your first call, as already advised, is to TEC, not Rossendales. At present you don't know what cards you're holding but you must before you contact the council or Rossendales.

Is there a live warrant, against whom, in respect of what and when does it expire?
Andy from up north
Hi Enceladus and everyone else who are trying to help me, here is an update, I have done what you said Enceladus and rang the TEC, I explained everything to the fella there
who was very helpful, he said that the course of action that I can take was to fill in forms TE7 and TE9 and send them back via email asap which I have just done, he said if there were
grounds for stopping any enforcement action, they will contact the council to instruct them to do so. So I have sent them and now just need to wait and see I guess.
I also rang the council today and eventually got through to the right people after being passed from pillar to post, I asked the woman there if they are legally within their rights to chase
this up after such a long time and she assured me that they were, so that's where I'm at at the moment, just wait and see what comes from my Out of Time application.

On the other note, does anyone know about the bailiffs having to accept any reasonable offer of payment, is this the case, if I make an offer I don't want them demanding more than I can afford by trying to intimidate me, I have dealt with them before and know what they're like. I'll let you know what happens.
Thankyou for your help everyone, especially Enceladus and Mr Mustard.

P.S. By the way, the woman at the council told me today that they have been instructed to chase up all old outstanding fines, something to do with the cutbacks, and unfortunately I have another outstanding one dated August 2012 that hasn't been sent to the bailiffs yet for enforcement action, she said if I ring her tomorrow she will try and sort something out so it doesn't go to them, and also over the last few years I have had twenty parking tickets, I agree that half the time I have been stupid to get that many but also we are being targeted down the street where I live because it's easy pickings for our caring (their own words) council.

Thanks for your help everyone.
hcandersen
And is there a live warrant, against whom, for what and when was it issued.

Pretty factual questions, so, irrespective of how obvious you think the answers might be, what are they?
Fair-Parking
The most important thing to do here is the contact the TEC and find out when it (the TEC) authorised the council to prepare the warrant of execution. If it has been more than twelve months since the authorisation then it has expired and has ceased to be a lawful document (if it was ever prepared as per CPR 75.7.3) and is thus unenforceable whatever the council and Rossedales say.
Andy from up north
Hi Fair-Parking, yes Enceladus told me to find that out, the guy at the TEC told me the date the Order for Recovery was authorised was 15.1.2014 and the date of the warrant was 8th April so it does look like they're within the time limits. I have been told today though by the TEC that they have received my TE7 and TE9 forms what I sent back last night and they have emailed the council to tell the bailiffs to cease with any more enforcement action and I don't have to do anything other than wait for them to contact me in the new year, which I have to thank Enceladus for that, although it's still under review at least I don't have to worry about dealing with the bailiffs again by the 26th. So thankyou everyone for your help and advice and if there's anything else to report I will update this thread later on. Cheers and merry Christmas to all.
Enceladus
What ground did you select on the Witness Statement form?
What reason(s) did you put on the Out/Extension Of Time application form? I did ask you to post up a draft before you submitted.

There is still something wrong with the timings. I would expect that any Order for Recovery and subsequent warrant for a Sep 2012 PCN to have been granted well before June 2013. And therefore the warrant would be now time expired. 15th Jan 2014 for OFR and 8th April 2014 for Warrant just don't stack up unless the original NTO and subsequent notices were sent to somebody else or a previous address. Or perhaps to a previous owner or a hire or lease company?

You said "p.s. yes I was the registered keeper at the same address" in response to the questions I asked in post #9 above.

Is there something else you need to tell us? There is no point in withholding information. The best advice is forthcoming when all the relevant facts are disclosed. EG if it is the case that you simply ignored notices and maybe hoped that the problem would go away, then just say so.

I also notice that the Warrant was authorised on the 8th April 2014. IE two days after new bailiff regulations came into force. Nearly three months after the OFR and approx 19 months after the original contravention. Why the delay, I wonder?

This PCN is September 2012 and yet you tell us ".... and unfortunately I have another outstanding one dated August 2012 that hasn't been sent to the bailiffs yet for enforcement action...".

Whatever about the legalities of it there seems to have been some very unreasonable delays with the enforcement process. I would be making a strong argument to the Adjudicator that justice so delayed is wholly unreasonable and is justice denied. Whether that would succeed is another matter.

Andy from up north
Hi Enceladus, how are you, as you can see from my earlier post I have had the enforcement action stopped and I'm just waiting to see what happens next, so thank-you for all your help, I'm very grateful. On the witness statement form, the only option I could choose was A. I did not receive the Notice to owner/penalty charge notice, on the Out/Extension Of Time application form, I simply put the same again, I did not receive the Notice to Owner, I don't understand what else I could have put. I know you asked me to submit a draft copy but I just didn't have the time to do that, the guy at the TEC told me to get it back to them first thing in the morning or they wouldn't have time to get it sorted out before the council finished for the holidays.

Regarding this bit,
You said "p.s. yes I was the registered keeper at the same address" in response to the questions I asked in post #9 above.

Is there something else you need to tell us? There is no point in withholding information. The best advice is forthcoming when all the relevant facts are disclosed. EG if it is the case that you simply ignored notices and maybe hoped that the problem would go away, then just say so

I am not withholding information, and everything I have said is true, the thing is, like I mentioned in an earlier post, the woman at the council told me the other day I have had twenty tickets in the past two and a half to three years, I knew I had had a lot but even that figure shocked me, I think I just was totally snowed under with demands and paperwork and letters and the like, also the last time I dealt with the bailiffs, I paid them around £400 because they told me that was all they had on me and that would clear everything and I wouldn't have to deal with them again and plus the debt would just get bigger if I didn't, so that is what I did so as far as I was concerned everything was paid for and finished with.

So what is happening now Enceladus, are they reviewing the case to see if I have to still pay it or do they have the power to write it off due to the length of time it's taken the council to do something about it, I'm just wondering that's all, I'm sure I'll find out soon enough although they did say it could take up to two months.
Enceladus
A copy of your Witness Statement and Out of Time application will have been sent to the Council, the same working day provided you got them to the TEC before 4pm.

The Council now have at least 19 working days to accept or oppose your Out Of Time application. Barring a mistake they will almost certainly oppose.

The Council should send a copy of the "Statement of Truth", ie. the letter opposing your application, directly to you as well as the TEC. Please post it up here as soon as you get it.

The TEC will then consider your Out Of Time application and will reject it. This is because you have not given them any valid reason as to why you are late and need an extension of time. That's why ask I asked you to post up a draft first to so if there was anything that could be tweaked to maximise your chances.

When you get the rejection you will have a mere 14 calendar days to submit an application to have the decision to refuse your OOT application reviewed before a judge in your local County Court. Not as daunting as it sounds so don't worry about it, 10 mins before the judge in his private chambers and these things are mostly granted if you have any sort of reason for being late. However the fee for a personal hearing has now risen to £155 and you are unlikely to see any of it back unless you are entitled to fee remission due to low income / qualifying benefits.

Whilst you are waiting I suggest you download an EX160A fee remission application. If you qualify then please have everything ready to go with your N244 review application immediately you get the rejection letter.

And there is still something wrong with the timings. Legal it may be but arguably also unreasonable.
Andy from up north
Hi again Enceladus, I'll post the Statement of truth letter when it arrives, the main thing for me is this help you've given me has bought me a lot of time, I didn't have a spare £187 pounds on boxing day, I was wondering though, by taking these steps, has the bailiffs been taken out of the equation and will they still want their £75 for sending a letter.
RxBandit
If your application to the TEC is successful then the case is effectively "rewound" to an earlier stage. The amount outstanding will be £70. You will have the opportunity one way or another to make representations against the penalty charge should you wish to do so (the exact mechanism will depend on the ground your witness statement is filed on, but the end result is that you get to state the reasons you don't think you should have to pay the £70).

If your application is unsuccessful then the case basically continues from where it left off, with the "bailiffs" seeking to recover £187.

As long as the TEC have rcvd your api cation they will have notified the council via email, and the council should put the "bailiffs" on hold pending the TECs decision. That will come via post. Usually takes 3-4 weeks, but Christmas may well push that to 5 weeks.
Andy from up north
ok, thanks for that RxBandit, I hope they rewind it then, save me some cash, can't believe I'm having to deal with this over two years later though, if only I'd have shut my mouth for another twenty seconds I wouldn't have got this ticket.
Andy from up north
Hi Enceladus and everyone else who have tried to help me, here is an update on what's happened regarding my tickets.
Well I'd like to say a massive thanks to Enceladus because the initial one involving the demand from the bailiff has been written off, I followed Enceladus' advice and it saved me £187, so thank you. It turned out I had another three outstanding which I didn't know about, one of which dated back to august 2012, this one has also been written off, I have two left which I have to pay £70 each on and I also got two within five days of each other last November, one of these was also written off, so all in all I have to pay three and then all is done and dusted, I have learnt my lesson the hard way and have received none so far this year. Thanks for your help and happy new year.
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