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abbot
right so im a young electrician guy and ive only went and got caught on the phone while driving. i have 9 points already. I am now facing the dreaded totting band.
My first move against this is to launch this thread, seeing if i have a case against the ban on grounds of "exceptional hardship"

first three offences are sp30s.
I drive all over the country (scotland). A typical week will involve trips oban,inverness berwick, basically anywhere. So it goes without saying that getting the 6 month ban will result in loss of job.

Can i apply for "exceptional hardship" based on negative effects on health?
3 years ago i got diagnosed with MS. its a complicated disease, where stress has actually been proven to worsen the condition. so there is a slight worry rolling around my skull at this time.

Do you think its a good idea to lawyer up? Or should i go it alone, seige mentality

Hellfire8
If you're pleading guilty, it is doubtful a lawyer can help you really.

Exceptional Hardship is aimed at others rather than yourself, ie you care for your mother, take your mother to hospital etc. You're suppose to find hardship from the ban, that's the whole point of it. It is a punishment.
AFCNEAL
The exceptional hardship approach is based upon EH to others (i.e not to you....that's punishment). So losing your job doesn't matter much, it would be the effect on children, elderly relatives etc etc. I know little about MS but don't see the relationship between it and an EH argument (otherwise yourun the risk of saying anyone will an ailment can ignore the law?).

You have to be realistic and also work up a plausible response to the inevitable question 'If your licence is so important, why are you here before us with 9 points on it already....especially for using the phone which is entirely a matter of choice and avoided wth a 5 quid phone holder!?'

A lawyer will cost you dearly - many hundreds. A lot of folk on here have expertise on EH arguments and we don't charge!!
Jlc
To be fair EH doesn't only apply to the impact on others, although such impact is likely to carry more weight.

It's up to the court to decide, there's no hard and fast but court needs to be convinced that "hardship which is beyond that normally suffered". As stated, losing one's job doesn't necessarily cut it. Impact on one's health is probably a bit tenuous but if one could get an persuasive medical opinion then just may be. I have no such medical knowledge but I think it would be difficult to get a Doctor to submit such evidence that a driving ban would exacerbate a medical condition.
abbot
true this is supposed to be a punishment yes, of course, but surely it goes past the point of reasonable if my health was to deteriorate.

work is very "stressful", unrealistic targets are placed apon people, the current work climate is a harsh one, where employees are being asked to do more and more, there arent any laws against this because the tax machine is a cruel mistress.

can i go down this line? obvious the language will be finessed. putting emphasis on the "stress" factor. Which i know is an invisible entity but i can assure you i very real.

these arguments will be accompanied by a sencerly apologetic tone

Logician
Exceptional hardship is not solely about the effect on others, it can also be the effect on you, but as others are innocent of the offence the effect on them is rather more persuasive. An effect on your health, if supported by medical evidence, could be exceptional hardship on the basis that disqualification has more of an effect on you than on the average person. However stress is I think rather tenuous, in that the stress comes more at this stage when you do not know what is happening, but losing your job is of course stressful in itself. You would definitely need solid medical evidence about the effect on you personally in your condition, something from a website talking in general terms is not going to cut it. I take it you have no dependants relying on the money you bring home, or elderly or disabled people you transport, so you cannot make a case for the effect on others? I think that realistically you are going to struggle to convince a court of EH in your case and the question is going to be why as a young electrician it would be difficult for you to find another job in which you did not have to travel. Depending on how busy the courts are it may take many months before your case is heard, and a wise course of action would be to spend that time looking for such a job which does not depend on your driving.

Bear in mind that even if you do mount a successful EH argument, you cannot use that same argument again for three years, and with your unreformed driving habits you might well clock up another three points in that period.
abbot
why was i using my phone when driving? importance of driving liscense?

when i meet these type of questions i intend to reply with the fact that all my speeding tickets are in areas i dont normally visit.
ie. its sometimes confusing what the actual speed limit is, sometimes the sat nav gets it wrong and theres not regular sign posts.

by the way i do know that i have no right to escape a driving ban under any circumstances, however it would be nice

thats sounds like an opening statement right there!
AFCNEAL
QUOTE (abbot @ Sat, 13 Dec 2014 - 12:51) *
true this is supposed to be a punishment yes, of course, but surely it goes past the point of reasonable if my health was to deteriorate.

work is very "stressful", unrealistic targets are placed apon people, the current work climate is a harsh one, where employees are being asked to do more and more, there arent any laws against this because the tax machine is a cruel mistress.

can i go down this line? obvious the language will be finessed. putting emphasis on the "stress" factor. Which i know is an invisible entity but i can assure you i very real.

these arguments will be accompanied by a sencerly apologetic tone


All true, but as stated already you are a 'repeat offender' in terms of motoring offences - and you may have ccidentally crept overspeed limits in the past, but you can't accidentally pick up and use a mobile phone? Why did none of this feature in consideration of your health (you may be asked)?
abbot
all good points.

i wont get another 3 points, honestly, since i got they 9 for speeding ive been driving like a saint. happened on friday in maryhill, pulled over to phone my boss, he never answered, proceeded to drive down the road, phone goes, i answered it, police guy was comin out of greggs, band 3 points even despite me being especially nice to the guy, wheres the justice!

i will be asked some tough questions,

why did i not think about this before picking up the phone?

honestly, with the chronic bad luck i seem to have, ive developed a coping mechenism of basically " not worring too much about things"
i know i cant use this in court but it seems to be true





my initial ms flare up or relapse and subsequent diagnosis was very close to the time i got paid off from my fist real job. would it be wise to use this?

no i dont have anyone depending on me, i cant really claim it will have an adverse effect, except the fact that the good people of scotland will be deprived of a exceptional taxpaying electrician.

could i be very bold.

plead not guilty!
say the policeman saw me HOLDING the phone, not USING the phone.

remember.. this is an ideas session, so dont shoot me down too hard
some ideas may suspect
AFCNEAL
QUOTE (abbot @ Sat, 13 Dec 2014 - 13:25) *
my initial ms flare up or relapse and subsequent diagnosis was very close to the time i got paid off from my fist real job. would it be wise to use this?


plead not guilty!
say the policeman saw me HOLDING the phone, not USING the phone.

remember.. this is an ideas session, so dont shoot me down too hard
some ideas may suspect


I'm struggling to see the relevance of the MS flare-up back in history in respect to amassing 9-12 points in 3 years? Any attempt to use the medical condition will need to be backed up with evidence/facts from the medical profession (only). Circumstantial narrative from you won't wash.

Holding the phone is the offence - why else would one hold it other than to use it (the court will ask). Keep the ideas coming, but so far you have precious little to suggest a further three points won't happen. I'm not sure about Scotland, but we have seen examplesof people getting 12+ and keeping their licences but they're usually looking after elderly parents, heavily active in charities, disabled etc etc.........
paulajayne
What are the dates on the speeding offences?

fedup2
i never get the phone thing, a bluetooth headset costs £10 and just £40 for a blinder.
abbot
yeah its a hard one. i could get a document from my medical records that says i have ms for sure, dont know if it'll help. worth taking with me?

what services would a lawyer provide that i havent covered?
would they have any "moves"
would it be a waste of time?



the speeding offences are august2013 january 2014 july 2014

i know im defo gettin one of them headsets. Do you think i should walk into court wearing it? will that be appreciated?
fedup2
Wether its worth getting representation is down to how you think you would handle it.You are likely to be stuck in the witness box and have to defend your reasons not to be disqualified.If you have a short fuse it may not be for you.
abbot
part of me is worried that if i handle myself that i could freeze up, or maybe go the other way and come off as too relxed about the whole thing.
how much is a lawyer for these things? roughly?

i never had a sinlge point on my driving liscence till i started with this company (true)
all points have been acrewed in the compnay van, never in my own car
i started in april 2013, now im on the brink of 12 points
i realise that stress is being placed on me by my employer and i intend/already handed in my notice, so that i can resume my normal proper driving behaviour.

will that wash? pointers?

im trying to marinade my case with lots of arguments to make the court find me more deserving of leniency, is this a good tactic?
AFCNEAL
QUOTE (abbot @ Sat, 13 Dec 2014 - 13:55) *
part of me is worried that if i handle myself that i could freeze up, or maybe go the other way and come off as too relxed about the whole thing. Only you can decide that!
how much is a lawyer for these things? roughly? Assume £1k minimum

i never had a sinlge point on my driving liscence till i started with this company (true)
all points have been acrewed in the compnay van, never in my own car
i started in april 2013, now im on the brink of 12 points
i realise that stress is being placed on me by my employer and i intend/already handed in my notice, so that i can resume my normal proper driving behaviour. Seems a bit radical?

will that wash? pointers? See below

im trying to marinade my case with lots of arguments to make the court find me more deserving of leniency, is this a good tactic? Yes, but carpet-bombing everything possible creates doubt about the integrity of what you're saying. So stick to a few true, relevant and impactful points and stick to those only.
abbot
ooft a grand! there will definetly be one less body in that court room!

what do you think are my strongest suits? health? quitting my job? severing the gangrenous limb so to speak?
Logician
QUOTE (abbot @ Sat, 13 Dec 2014 - 13:40) *
yeah its a hard one. i could get a document from my medical records that says i have ms for sure, dont know if it'll help. worth taking with me?


As I said earlier, you need a statement from your doctor specifically linking your stress to your MS, simply proving you have MS gets you nowhere. This site links stress and MS but of course is in general terms, you need a statement from a doctor confirming it applies in your particular case. Otherwise you are liable to get the court saying they sympathise with your medical condition but do not see it has any relevance to whether or not you should be disqualified. At the same time do not exaggerate your MS or the court might start wondering whether you are fit to be driving at all.

abbot
very good point Not overcooking the MS.

The court will find it very hard to understand, most likely the judge will not have ms, im trying to create a landscape with the ms.
Given the opportuniy i could stand in court literally all day and unleash a tirade of righteous anger detailing the sacrifices i make everyday and how this disease has tore me to pieces, how i had rebuild myself up, bit by bit, the depressions i go through, the unkown, the fact that there is not a single human being on the planet who is an "expert" on MS, and that i will likely deteriorate through my early life probably ending up in a wheelchair. Honestly im not just talking about this when i say that i really have had quite a good amount to deal with already aged 25.

now theres a chance if i get another driving ban i will once again scrape myself back up, but there is also a chance that if i dont manage this then i will slip into another depression, which will have negative health efffects

i could take this line, but would it help me if i go in angry?
AFCNEAL
QUOTE (abbot @ Sat, 13 Dec 2014 - 14:09) *
ooft a grand! there will definetly be one less body in that court room!

what do you think are my strongest suits? health? quitting my job? severing the gangrenous limb so to speak?


Hard to say as we don't know the minutiae of your life. If you'll be fired without a licence could be 'useful'. As above, the medical aspect could backfire (and harks back to the previous disinterest in traffic laws). If true and preferably somehow 'demonstrated' any pressure (I assume you meant pressure rather that stress as posted) from your employer, in terms of unrealistic timetables to be at point a/b/c might not help, but at least mitigates your 'previous'. Quitting would rather take away the impact of not having a licence as you wouldn't need it then!!
abbot
yeah but quitting to find a new employer? an employer that doesnt phone you up when your working in aberdeen saying "can you just catch a wee job in inverness cheers" (3hour drive) occasional 14hour shifts due to job/travelling, ferry trips etc

helpful?
AFCNEAL
QUOTE (abbot @ Sat, 13 Dec 2014 - 15:01) *
yeah but quitting to find a new employer? an employer that doesnt phone you up when your working in aberdeen saying "can you just catch a wee job in inverness cheers" (3hour drive) occasional 14hour shifts due to job/travelling, ferry trips etc

helpful?


Not really and doesn't explain the more recent reluctance to buy a cheap handsfree kit either. (Aberdeen to Inverness = 3 hours?...I'm surprised you have speeding tickets, it used to take me about 90 mins!).

As said before - no job diminishes the need for your licence...........
Logician
QUOTE (abbot @ Sat, 13 Dec 2014 - 14:51) *
very good point Not overcooking the MS. The court will find it very hard to understand, most likely the judge will not have ms, im trying to create a landscape with the ms. Given the opportuniy i could stand in court literally all day and unleash a tirade of righteous anger detailing the sacrifices i make everyday and how this disease has tore me to pieces, how i had rebuild myself up, bit by bit, the depressions i go through, the unkown, the fact that there is not a single human being on the planet who is an "expert" on MS, and that i will likely deteriorate through my early life probably ending up in a wheelchair. Honestly im not just talking about this when i say that i really have had quite a good amount to deal with already aged 25. now theres a chance if i get another driving ban i will once again scrape myself back up, but there is also a chance that if i dont manage this then i will slip into another depression, which will have negative health efffects i could take this line, but would it help me if i go in angry?


Believe me I am sympathetic to your condition, I have watched a good friend deteriorate from her late twenties to her late sixties and talk of end of life care, but we need to relate this to the actual situation you will face in court. Righteous anger will do you no good at all, your condition is not anyone's fault, and the court is there to apply the law. If losing your licence means you suffer exceptional hardship, then you have a case, but you would need to demonstrate that is the case and for that you need specific medical evidence that relates to you.

From your description of your job it seems that alone provides a high level of stress, and you might be better off working somewhere else without that level of stress and pressure which leads you into very poor driving habits.

abbot
yes but im not contesting the most recent points, in my opinion they entirley justified, im looking for leniency in terms of the previous sp30s, (not all of them of course)

hahaa 90 minutes!, come on now this is a serious matter.

i'll be only laying all these details and baring a bit of my soul so that the judge can properly judge me,
surely theyve got to take some consideration, but by the sounds of it, at this point i may settle for a brief pause, followed swiftly by a beat down and then 4 consecutive life sentences with a round of waterboarding for dessert
Kickaha
The problem is that you will be judged on these latest points and not the previous ones.

Their view will be that even if the previous points were unfair, you answered the phone whilst driving completely aware that you were on 9 points. That does not portray a person who needs to keep his licence.

I think you need to focus on the effects losing your licence will have and be prepared for some difficult questions.
mrh3369
I need my licence for a job that I'm quitting is not the most persuasive argument that I've heard, you really need to slow down a bit and think things through and come up with a cohesive argument backed with facts.
abbot
mrh3369:

i dont need a liscense for a job im quitting? i think you have misunderstood.

right so the whole "quitting my job approach" was designed so that the judge will firstly recognise how seriously im taking the scenario.
Judge permitting i will then go on to find alternative employment with my driving liscense. It will be very hard to get a job without one.
this is one of my ideas, i might not utilise but i think the logic is perfectly clear, come on mate it not hard
mrh3369
just quoting from your own posts abbot, seriously think this through as you need a better argument, you must have rocks in your head to consider quitting a job with 12 points on your licence even if you avoid the totting ban as finding another where you need to drive will be quite challenging.
abbot
does anybody know the procedure?
will i have to plead guilty then what happens?
do i have to initiate the process of EH?

yeah but if i dont get a result here then getting a job without a driving liscense might be harder. i do concede that i will have to focus on the effetcs of losing my job etc.
When i think about it can be quite scary, but also you hear a lot of doctors, footballers gettin away with it, i can only hope
abbot
so say it comes to a ban and i get 6 months, does that mean my liscense will be clean after that?
fedup2
no points but the rest will be there.
Jlc
...and a TT99 to declare.
Logician
QUOTE (abbot @ Sat, 13 Dec 2014 - 16:23) *
does anybody know the procedure? will i have to plead guilty then what happens? do i have to initiate the process of EH? yeah but if i dont get a result here then getting a job without a driving liscense might be harder. i do concede that i will have to focus on the effetcs of losing my job etc. When i think about it can be quite scary, but also you hear a lot of doctors, footballers gettin away with it, i can only hope


You have to plead guilty to the latest offence of using your mobile because you have no defence, the court then moves on to sentence and that will mean three more points because that is laid down for that offence. Then you have 12 points and disqualification for a minimum of 6 months is automatic unless you put forward an EH argument. It is up to you to say you want to argue EH. The court cannot take into account anything which you might claim makes any of the offences less serious, so although you can say what you like about them, you have the points and that is what matters. If your EH argument is not successful, the disqualification takes effect immediately, the court has no discretion to postpone it, so do not plan on driving home.

abbot
sounds like a might as well go eh, just for the sake of it. is that right? can anything be gained by not goin e
looks like weve covered the full thing, thank you to everyone on here who gave me a bit of their time, drive safe out there tongue.gif
mrh3369
How were you caught and were you pulled over at the time?
abbot
i was spotted by a policman coming out of a bakers. the sun was blinding me at the time so i couldnt see much. he waved me down and he gave me the spiel. it is annoying because i do generally pull into the side of the road and park to speak on the phone. i had done this literally 2 minutes before the guy saw me but the boss didnt answer, he then phoned me back when i was on the main rd (driving) i answered
kanga
QUOTE ("abbot")
the sun was blinding me at the time so i couldnt see much.

There are some things that you really, really, really don't want to say in court.
abbot
oh yeah caution will be the word, theres the truth and then theres the more accaptable version of the truth
Sparxy
I don't think anyones mentioned it so far but be careful how much emphasis you put on being stressed with work, etc. Obviously driving whilst stressed AND on the phone may give rise to a concern about your capabilities in that situation.

4x4x4
Any mention of quitting your job for another where you don't need to drive will only serve to dilute any arguments you put forward for keeping your licence so I don't think is a good plan.
abbot
how long have they got to send out the nip?

also, what about plea in mitigation? special reasons? will any of these help me instead of EH
mrh3369
No nip is required as you were stopped at the time. They now have six months to bring it to court.
AFCNEAL
QUOTE (abbot @ Sun, 14 Dec 2014 - 09:20) *
how long have they got to send out the nip?

also, what about plea in mitigation? special reasons? will any of these help me instead of EH


This is starting to become Groundhog Day!

Special Reasons? What SRs apply to using a mobile phone whilst in control? (There is an exception for cases of dire emergency, but the call log would support that....). Same for mitigation - how can you mitigate the event?
Logician
Nothing you have said indicates a special reason, and mitigation if there was any would not reduce the number of points which is fixed, it might reduce the fine but that is not the problem.
mrh3369
Could the difficulty in finding work with no licence and MS be used as an EH argument?
abbot
i hope so mr h, the fear is alive and well and its haunting me every second.

having ms is not exactly and desired trait in an employee, especial working in a physical capacity and while no company can legally fire someone for having it, they can very easily not hire someone and avoid any potential hassle.

thinking on it today, ive decided i am definelty going to get a lawyer. Is there any point in phoning one now? before the summons?
Logician
You can do, they will very likely tell you they will be happy to present an EH argument on your behalf, and some will tell you they have an excellent track record in these cases and are confident of success. Others will be more realistic.
What I think you should be doing is looking around for another job that does not require you to drive and which gives you less stress. It will not help the EH argument but it will be much better for your life. Skilled tradesmen are in short supply, have a look at what's available.
abbot
i do suspect the lawyers will be optimistic, what with money involved, but at the same time, if i go in there by myself and i lose im likely to wonder what wouldve happened if id got a lawyer, and that might weigh on me.

i will have a wee look in terms of other jobs, maybe i should just resort to crime ive heard theres good money it (obvious jokes)
ReggieRebel
Do you need to travel to a GP or hospital regularly to manage your condition?

If so would not having a licence make that more difficult?
abbot
i have to travel to hospital to get blood taken every few months, ive spoke to michael lyons, he's got quite a reputablle shop in the glasgow town centre, he likes my case(obviously) and says he thinks theres a good chance that sympathy should be shown. ive asked him to be sincere and honest and he took the back foot a bit, suppose theres no way to know 100% but i think i trust him
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