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Veneer
Hi, I was recently issued a fine from a Council of an area in london. icon_mad.gif

I have read the sticky on parking fines, council vs private etc.. However, this is a unique offence which I didn't know was actively enforced (unlike speeding/traffic lights/parking).

It was for stopping in a "yellow box" at a traffic junction... :T

It is a penalty for £130, reduced to £65 if paid in 14 days.:money:

They have got footage/pictures of me lingering on the border of a "yellow box" for about 4 seconds.

However I wish to appeal this, and have come to this forum for advice !:A

What can/should I say with regards to this in order for them to overturn it.

Can I use any of the following points?

Firstly, there was no signage for "traffic enforcement cameras" in the area, 100% sure of this, as I was actively looking out for "congestion zone" signage at the time.

Is this a valid point? because as far as I know, with speeding and traffic light cameras, there needs to be signage within a certain distance of the camera.

Secondly - The traffic was horrendous, and I believed that I would actually clear the yellow box, but ended up stopping on its peripheries.

Thirdly - The penalty exceeds the offense, its ludicrous to ask for so much, for something that isn't even serious. This just looks a creative way to generate more funds for the local council during times of austerity. I understand the need for speeding enforcement, public safety. To an extent, I understand the need for parking enforcement in certain areas (i.e. Picadilly circus).

Finally - I actually reside in Wales, which is still in the UK, but not part of England, is there anyway I can use this technicality to my advantage and make this as difficult as possible for them.

Right now... I would like nothing more, than to kick them in the crotch, and watch them cry and wheeze like a fat kid on sports day...... BUT, I am trying to do this in a civil manner, and have come to you guys for much needed wisdom.

Many Thanks, Anonymous!
Jlc
In regards to speeding - no camera warning signs are required. As long as the required signage is in place then it is enforceable. My understanding here is that the yellow box itself is sufficient.

The amount is a penalty but can be levied as decriminalised notice. (Unlike private parking charges were there is a strong argument about the amounts levied - as a charge rather than a 'fine'/penalty)

Being in Wales is no assistance.

Others will be along to cover some of the other specific points but depersonalised scans of the paperwork would help...
Bagshot
Let's see the pictures/video. If it really was on the edge of the box and only for a matter of seconds, you may have some luck with de minimus.
peterguk
QUOTE (Veneer @ Wed, 3 Dec 2014 - 17:36) *
Firstly, there was no signage for "traffic enforcement cameras" in the area...

Is this a valid point? because as far as I know, with speeding and traffic light cameras, there needs to be signage within a certain distance of the camera.


No signs whatsoever are needed for speeding or traffic light cameras.

QUOTE (Veneer @ Wed, 3 Dec 2014 - 17:36) *
I actually reside in Wales, which is still in the UK, but not part of England, is there anyway I can use this technicality to my advantage


Seriously? biggrin.gif

Errr, don't come back?
Veneer
QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 3 Dec 2014 - 19:35) *
QUOTE (Veneer @ Wed, 3 Dec 2014 - 17:36) *
Firstly, there was no signage for "traffic enforcement cameras" in the area...

Is this a valid point? because as far as I know, with speeding and traffic light cameras, there needs to be signage within a certain distance of the camera.


No signs whatsoever are needed for speeding or traffic light cameras.



For speed cameras, they need to be clearly posted a few hundred metres before the actual camera, and the camera needs to be obvious to the road users.

I have checked this before.


Here is the picture - I was literally on the edge. I thought the car in front would clear it, so i went ahead.

Thanks for looking at this guys.

Click to view attachment
orford
Have you viewed the video and confirmed you were only stopped for the 4 seconds you claim?
Veneer
I have not viewed the video, but the time stamps on the penalty notice shows 4 seconds between the two pictures. But I was literally on the edge of the box, slowly creeping out of it (so technically not "stopped").

Do i have any chance at a plea for leniency/discretion in this case?

or should i cough up the £65.

Many thanks.
orford
QUOTE (Veneer @ Wed, 3 Dec 2014 - 22:25) *
I have not viewed the video, but the time stamps on the penalty notice shows 4 seconds between the two pictures. But I was literally on the edge of the box, slowly creeping out of it (so technically not "stopped").

Do i have any chance at a plea for leniency/discretion in this case?

or should i cough up the £65.

Many thanks.
If you are going to challenge, it's important to know what evidence the council have. They have shown you 2 still images 4 seconds apart, which proves very little. The video will show whether you were moving or not and the total length of time
Incandescent
It is important to realise that the video is their only evidence, therefore it must show the contravention. Two still pictures is not the evidence, it is a continuous recording so you really do need to see it if you want to fight this. If you were stationary for less than 5 seconds you can appeal on de minimis, but you'll have to risk the full £130 at PATAS, the adjudicator for London.

I have been to Wales and they have yellow box junctions there too, in fact Cardiff is about to start enforcing them, so watch out !
Veneer
Ok, they say they have footage proving it - should I request to see the footage?

also they say that I have two weeks to settle.

If I make an appeal, can i pay the reduced amount if my appeal fails? or will I have to pay the increased amount?

The correspondence doesn't clarify this?



Rallyman72
QUOTE (Veneer @ Wed, 3 Dec 2014 - 20:11) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 3 Dec 2014 - 19:35) *
QUOTE (Veneer @ Wed, 3 Dec 2014 - 17:36) *
Firstly, there was no signage for "traffic enforcement cameras" in the area...

Is this a valid point? because as far as I know, with speeding and traffic light cameras, there needs to be signage within a certain distance of the camera.


No signs whatsoever are needed for speeding or traffic light cameras.



For speed cameras, they need to be clearly posted a few hundred metres before the actual camera, and the camera needs to be obvious to the road users.

I have checked this before.

I'm sorry but that is completely wrong. Cameras do not need to be signed, a few years back if the SCP wanted to keep the money raised by the camera they had to be signed but that stopped quite some time ago. What you have found is out of date information.
SchoolRunMum
You need to show LOT more of that PCN (both sides, all small print!!) if we are to tell you whether the wording or 28 day period is wrong, which it often is.
Jlc
QUOTE (Veneer @ Wed, 3 Dec 2014 - 20:11) *
For speed cameras, they need to be clearly posted a few hundred metres before the actual camera, and the camera needs to be obvious to the road users.

I have checked this before.

You are confusing guidelines and the law. No warning is required, end of.
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