Afternoon everyone.
Was in a pay & display bay in July, and apparently after a certain time (6.30pm) the whole street where I was parked became suspended for anyone without a residents parking permit. This was due to an event in Finsbury Park. So I get back to the car around 7pm to find I have a PCN.
However, there was no parking suspension sign in the pay and display area, only in the CPZ area beyond. Evidence of this fact is that the traffic warden took a photo of the suspension sign in the CPZ as proof, NOT where I was parked. I took lots of photos of the area to use as evidence.
So I have two questions:
1: can a parking suspension sign within a CPZ further down and on the other side of the road be valid for a different (pay and display) area?
2: I understand that these signs need to meet certain regulations to be valid. From the attached photo, is it valid?
{EDIT: I did appeal in July, but never received anything back from them (lost in the post?!), so I have no idea on what grounds (if any) my original informal appear was rejected - and as they don't have a phone number, I think I need to send them a bloody letter to find out...}
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I would think that, because of the event, it is a prohibition rather than suspension. I've always found this a grey area because you are dealing with a much greater area than individual bays and I believe the event has to be held on the road itself.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/16A
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/1...mentary-c861705
Post upthe PCN, without personal details-- what was the contravention?
If this is from July have you not been issued a charge certificate?
Mick
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/16A
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/1...mentary-c861705
Post upthe PCN, without personal details-- what was the contravention?
If this is from July have you not been issued a charge certificate?
Mick
Thanks for your reply. No, the event was at a nearby park and they apparently restrict parking in what seems like half the borough for such events. I received the pcn in July, appealed but heard nothing until today when I got a notification I now owe them £130.
I'll upload the pcn tomorrow, but I suspect my two original questions are key to whether my next appeal will be successful. Cheers
I'll upload the pcn tomorrow, but I suspect my two original questions are key to whether my next appeal will be successful. Cheers
PCN, unseen, dated July for an unknown contravention.
It's now November.
We need the PCN and all formal correspondence between the authority and you i.e. your challenge, their reply, if any, the NTO, your reps and their rejection.
Until I've seen the PCN and the contravention and the other correspondence I'll hold fire on further comments.
It's now November.
We need the PCN and all formal correspondence between the authority and you i.e. your challenge, their reply, if any, the NTO, your reps and their rejection.
Until I've seen the PCN and the contravention and the other correspondence I'll hold fire on further comments.
OK, for those who have asked, here is all paperwork relating to this case.
- PCN issued in July
- My informal appeal from July
- the NTO I received yesterday.
- NOTE: there is no reply from them, apart from the NTO
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My informal appeal:
With regard to PCN number XXXXXXX which was served on 05/07/2014 against vehicle registration number XXXXX, I assert that no contravention occurred.
The 'pay and display' zone I was parked in is enforced until 18.30 on the day in question. I attach a photo of the bay area and parking sign showing this. My vehicle is the one at the far end of the pay and display area, behind the group of people.
I attach photographic evidence of the permit I purchased which shows I paid to fully cover the period shown on the pay and display sign. I have numerous further photos of the car, bay and area if required, which are complete with timestamps showing the day and time. I also have with three witnesses.
Please note the restricted times of this zone, which end at 18.30; the parking ticket was issued at 18.55, 25 minutes after the restricted period ends.
The evidence Haringey Council provided shows a temporary sign within a separate resident CPZ zone further up the road, affixed to a lamppost outside 10-12 Stanhope Gardens. This is some way down the road and outside the pay and display zone I was parked in. You can see the position of this lamppost more clearly on the streetview screenshot I also attach.
Legally, the Pay and Display area I was parked in is a separate zone and the photo of this temporary sign is irrelevant to where I was parked.
The temporary restriction sign shown also appears to be non-compliant under The Road Traffic (Temporary Restrictions) Procedure Regulations 1992. If my informal appeal were to be rejected, this would form part of my extended arguments to PATAS.
I trust these issues will be sufficient representation for the PCN in question to be cancelled.
- PCN issued in July
- My informal appeal from July
- the NTO I received yesterday.
- NOTE: there is no reply from them, apart from the NTO
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My informal appeal:
With regard to PCN number XXXXXXX which was served on 05/07/2014 against vehicle registration number XXXXX, I assert that no contravention occurred.
The 'pay and display' zone I was parked in is enforced until 18.30 on the day in question. I attach a photo of the bay area and parking sign showing this. My vehicle is the one at the far end of the pay and display area, behind the group of people.
I attach photographic evidence of the permit I purchased which shows I paid to fully cover the period shown on the pay and display sign. I have numerous further photos of the car, bay and area if required, which are complete with timestamps showing the day and time. I also have with three witnesses.
Please note the restricted times of this zone, which end at 18.30; the parking ticket was issued at 18.55, 25 minutes after the restricted period ends.
The evidence Haringey Council provided shows a temporary sign within a separate resident CPZ zone further up the road, affixed to a lamppost outside 10-12 Stanhope Gardens. This is some way down the road and outside the pay and display zone I was parked in. You can see the position of this lamppost more clearly on the streetview screenshot I also attach.
Legally, the Pay and Display area I was parked in is a separate zone and the photo of this temporary sign is irrelevant to where I was parked.
The temporary restriction sign shown also appears to be non-compliant under The Road Traffic (Temporary Restrictions) Procedure Regulations 1992. If my informal appeal were to be rejected, this would form part of my extended arguments to PATAS.
I trust these issues will be sufficient representation for the PCN in question to be cancelled.
This has nothing to do with suspending anything, they've not suspended, they've introduced. And I've no idea on what basis or with what lawful authority. We also don't know whether the parking place is designated 24/7 or just when it's in effect. In either case, IMO the authority are required to place whatever signs are required to impose whatever restrictions are in place (leaving aside for one moment whether they had lawful authority to impose any restrictions) on the posts holding the traffic signs within the parking place. And you say they didn't.
Thanks - I parked in a place which is usually free after 6.30 (except on the day in question due to this event taking place nearby, which I was unaware of).
I get that common sense fair play and dictate that if there is no sign telling me not to park, then I can park...but councils don't apply common sense and will obfuscate and hide behind technicalities to screw me over, so I want to be armed with everything I can throw at them before I appeal (again). I'm worried that they will argue the sign in the CPZ can cover the other bits of the street, including where I was parked.
But this all brings me back to my original question, based on the photo of the sign they used in evidence against me:
1: can a temporarily introduced suspension sign within a CPZ further down and on the other side of the road be valid for a different (pay and display) area?
2: I understand that these signs need to meet certain regulations to be valid. From the attached photo, is it valid? I wrote in my appeal about the The Road Traffic (Temporary Restrictions) Procedure Regulations 1992, but don't know if its been superseded by any newer law.
Tomorrow I'll call them and ask them whey I never received a reply back from them, and what grounds they refused my appeal (if indeed that is what has happened), which I'll also post up here.
I get that common sense fair play and dictate that if there is no sign telling me not to park, then I can park...but councils don't apply common sense and will obfuscate and hide behind technicalities to screw me over, so I want to be armed with everything I can throw at them before I appeal (again). I'm worried that they will argue the sign in the CPZ can cover the other bits of the street, including where I was parked.
But this all brings me back to my original question, based on the photo of the sign they used in evidence against me:
1: can a temporarily introduced suspension sign within a CPZ further down and on the other side of the road be valid for a different (pay and display) area?
2: I understand that these signs need to meet certain regulations to be valid. From the attached photo, is it valid? I wrote in my appeal about the The Road Traffic (Temporary Restrictions) Procedure Regulations 1992, but don't know if its been superseded by any newer law.
Tomorrow I'll call them and ask them whey I never received a reply back from them, and what grounds they refused my appeal (if indeed that is what has happened), which I'll also post up here.
1. No.
2. Don't know because I've no idea under what legislation they imposed these additional prohibitions. I suggest you ask them when you call.
CPZs have the square root of s*d all to do with parking places, they regulate waiting restrictions on yellow lines, not permitted parking in parking places.
2. Don't know because I've no idea under what legislation they imposed these additional prohibitions. I suggest you ask them when you call.
CPZs have the square root of s*d all to do with parking places, they regulate waiting restrictions on yellow lines, not permitted parking in parking places.
So I've just spoke to the council. Apparently a rejection was send in late October (which I didn't receive) with the following reason:
"grounds that the hours of restriction were 6.30 - 8.30 and there was relevant signage displayed at the time of the contravention informing me of those times. The restriction applied to all the bays in Stanhope Gardens."
I took a photo of the pay and display sign where I was parked. There was no temporary sign there. I'm guessing, as I suspected they are arguing that the sign over the road in the CPZ was sufficient for them to restrict the entire road.
now what??
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"grounds that the hours of restriction were 6.30 - 8.30 and there was relevant signage displayed at the time of the contravention informing me of those times. The restriction applied to all the bays in Stanhope Gardens."
I took a photo of the pay and display sign where I was parked. There was no temporary sign there. I'm guessing, as I suspected they are arguing that the sign over the road in the CPZ was sufficient for them to restrict the entire road.
now what??
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I don't think you're fully understanding this matter.
You were in a parking place.
The contravention refers to an offence occurring in a location subject to waiting restrictions, so not a parking place (you could physically still be there but permitted parking would have ended and ON THE SAME SIGN you would see a waiting restriction).
A see page 66 etc. of this for the form of sign which creates a waiting restriction in a parking place but outside its operational hours:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...-chapter-03.pdf
The only thing that the authority may do without recourse to legislation is to suspend the operation of the parking place, they MAY NOT change the restriction.
As you've not posted a traffic sign with combined parking and waiting restrictions, we're left to conclude that whatever the authority have done has needed other legislation. You were going to ask them.
You were in a parking place.
The contravention refers to an offence occurring in a location subject to waiting restrictions, so not a parking place (you could physically still be there but permitted parking would have ended and ON THE SAME SIGN you would see a waiting restriction).
A see page 66 etc. of this for the form of sign which creates a waiting restriction in a parking place but outside its operational hours:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...-chapter-03.pdf
The only thing that the authority may do without recourse to legislation is to suspend the operation of the parking place, they MAY NOT change the restriction.
As you've not posted a traffic sign with combined parking and waiting restrictions, we're left to conclude that whatever the authority have done has needed other legislation. You were going to ask them.
Indeed I'm not understanding the matter, hence me being on this forum 
The person on the phone was unable to help much.
There was no other extra signage on my P&D area, other than what I posted. After I got the PCN I saw that almost every other lamppost down the street (which becomes a CPZ after the first few pay and display spaces) had a temporary yellow sign on it.
So basically I suspect they forgot to put on a sign that particular lamppost (which covers the whole P&D area I was in), or it was removed before I got there.
What I was told by the council is a direct quote (I recorded the conversation) so as I said before they seem to think that that the sign over the road in the CPZ area was sufficient for them to restrict (sorry, 'suspend' or whatever terminology is correct) the entire road.
So I was hoping someone might have a relevant piece of legislation that says something about [the specific area I was parked] needing its own temporary sign too. I was also hoping that maybe their temporary signs in general broke some contravention by missing something important I'm unaware of.
I thought I had a pretty good case so the rejection of my informal appeal makes me think the same thing will happen with the NTO unless I can bring something else to the table. Ultimately, I'd like to know if I have a case, which isn't yet evident to me from any of the posts I've read.
The person on the phone was unable to help much.There was no other extra signage on my P&D area, other than what I posted. After I got the PCN I saw that almost every other lamppost down the street (which becomes a CPZ after the first few pay and display spaces) had a temporary yellow sign on it.
So basically I suspect they forgot to put on a sign that particular lamppost (which covers the whole P&D area I was in), or it was removed before I got there.
What I was told by the council is a direct quote (I recorded the conversation) so as I said before they seem to think that that the sign over the road in the CPZ area was sufficient for them to restrict (sorry, 'suspend' or whatever terminology is correct) the entire road.
So I was hoping someone might have a relevant piece of legislation that says something about [the specific area I was parked] needing its own temporary sign too. I was also hoping that maybe their temporary signs in general broke some contravention by missing something important I'm unaware of.
I thought I had a pretty good case so the rejection of my informal appeal makes me think the same thing will happen with the NTO unless I can bring something else to the table. Ultimately, I'd like to know if I have a case, which isn't yet evident to me from any of the posts I've read.
Looks like no-one knows of the legality of these temporary signs? So one final thing before I go and write my appeal: I happened to be passing a road in the same borough today and saw this sign:
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See it has the big 'no loading' roundel and the name of the issuing Council, along with information about the Temporary Traffic Order they have, in line with the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 section 14.
Now look at my original first attachment. The temporary sign is missing these things. Do they have any legal bearing for my imminent appeal?
thanks.
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See it has the big 'no loading' roundel and the name of the issuing Council, along with information about the Temporary Traffic Order they have, in line with the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 section 14.
Now look at my original first attachment. The temporary sign is missing these things. Do they have any legal bearing for my imminent appeal?
thanks.
Yes we do.
The law regarding signs is in two parts:
Specifying the types of signs to be used, and
Specifying the circumstances in which they must be displayed.
S64 of this applies to types of signs to be used in respect of what I would call regular traffic orders made under the act. This is supplemented by other provisions elsewhere regarding the display of notices instead of signs in special circumstances.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...-chapter-03.pdf
The above and s65 give Mimisters the power to make these regs:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...668/annex-d.pdf
Ss 18 and 19 apply.
But we DO NOT KNOW upon what legislation the authority relied in order to bring these purported prohibitions into effect and so we cannot give you the detail of precisely which section or regulation has been contravened. This is why you were asked to find out what power the authority were using. Nonetheless, the general duty on the authority is to convey the prohibition clearly and lawfully. Based on your account, they haven't. But you will need their response and reasoning in writing.
The law regarding signs is in two parts:
Specifying the types of signs to be used, and
Specifying the circumstances in which they must be displayed.
S64 of this applies to types of signs to be used in respect of what I would call regular traffic orders made under the act. This is supplemented by other provisions elsewhere regarding the display of notices instead of signs in special circumstances.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...-chapter-03.pdf
The above and s65 give Mimisters the power to make these regs:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...668/annex-d.pdf
Ss 18 and 19 apply.
But we DO NOT KNOW upon what legislation the authority relied in order to bring these purported prohibitions into effect and so we cannot give you the detail of precisely which section or regulation has been contravened. This is why you were asked to find out what power the authority were using. Nonetheless, the general duty on the authority is to convey the prohibition clearly and lawfully. Based on your account, they haven't. But you will need their response and reasoning in writing.
Understood and thanks.
I emailed them two days ago (as instructed by the person I spoke to) about which legislation they used to suspend parking (and about them not sending me a reply to my infomal challenge). They apparently aim to respond within two working days, so I should hear back today. If I don't I'll email them again and post their reply when I get it.
If they do not respond, does this not fetter my right to appeal?
I emailed them two days ago (as instructed by the person I spoke to) about which legislation they used to suspend parking (and about them not sending me a reply to my infomal challenge). They apparently aim to respond within two working days, so I should hear back today. If I don't I'll email them again and post their reply when I get it.
If they do not respond, does this not fetter my right to appeal?
One step at a time. Let's wait until next week or their reply before introducing more 'what ifs' into the thread.
Hi again,
I still haven't heard back from Haringey regarding my questions, but I did look on their website and found a letter they supposedly sent to residents informing them of what was happening on that weekend:
http://www.haringey.gov.uk/wireless_info_l...der-gardens.pdf
I note specifically the excerpt which says:
"...on the days and times listed above, vehicles must not park in anyresidents/business parking bay on these roads unless they display a valid Green Lanes CPZpermit or visitors’ permit. [Note: Pay and display and shared residents/pay and display parking bays will operate at theusual times.]"
There is no mention of the period after the usual operational times (after 6.30pm), which is when I got the ticket. In fact it seems to directly state that the temporary parking controls only apply to the resident and business parking bays.
Does this help me in any way?
I still haven't heard back from Haringey regarding my questions, but I did look on their website and found a letter they supposedly sent to residents informing them of what was happening on that weekend:
http://www.haringey.gov.uk/wireless_info_l...der-gardens.pdf
I note specifically the excerpt which says:
"...on the days and times listed above, vehicles must not park in anyresidents/business parking bay on these roads unless they display a valid Green Lanes CPZpermit or visitors’ permit. [Note: Pay and display and shared residents/pay and display parking bays will operate at theusual times.]"
There is no mention of the period after the usual operational times (after 6.30pm), which is when I got the ticket. In fact it seems to directly state that the temporary parking controls only apply to the resident and business parking bays.
Does this help me in any way?
I guess no-one knows if the above document can help my case?
OK, so I called up the council having received no answer to my emailed questions and was told they will reply to me on the 21st January 2015. I attempted to explain that I need the answers to those questions to help my formal appeal and that 2015 is too late to get the info...but she couldn't really help. She said I could put any questions in my formal appeal, which is of course ridiculous.
She also kept telling me I was in a resident's bay when I was in a P&D area. When I told her to look at streetview (which she did) she just said she didn't know what to advise me.
She did elaborate on some info in the rejection of my informal appeal regarding the compliance of their temporary signage. They apparently say that their signage is complaint with the 'The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002'. I was unable to find any info relating to temporary signs in these regs...maybe I missed them. And I thought this http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-2596.pdf was the relevant regulation?
Does this help anyone to help me? I just don't know what grounds to appeal on any more, beyond what I originally said in my informal appeal. Thanks
She also kept telling me I was in a resident's bay when I was in a P&D area. When I told her to look at streetview (which she did) she just said she didn't know what to advise me.
She did elaborate on some info in the rejection of my informal appeal regarding the compliance of their temporary signage. They apparently say that their signage is complaint with the 'The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002'. I was unable to find any info relating to temporary signs in these regs...maybe I missed them. And I thought this http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-2596.pdf was the relevant regulation?
Does this help anyone to help me? I just don't know what grounds to appeal on any more, beyond what I originally said in my informal appeal. Thanks
Oh well, looks like I'm on my own from here. Thanks for everyone who read this thread.
All the best.
All the best.
If you're at the formal appeal to an NtO, then put it in, but the basis of your appeal seems to be misleading or missing signage, so that is what you appeal on. I am sure you understand that it will only be when you get to PATAS that any serious look at yor case will be made. That is how councils work, collect the cash from most people, (at the discount level), and stonewall the awkward squad like yourself.
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