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aura
Hi guys,

I need your opinion on this, never got a parking ticket before luckily.
I have a 50cc scooter, I park it in my garden so I don't own a parking permit (my area is residents only).
It's a back garden with a tall-ish wooden fence around it and a door that only closes from inside (you know the ones).
The garden door/gate is obviously on the pavement (not lowered).
This morning I pushed the bike out of the garden as usual, left the bike not locked with the front wheel pointing to the garden gate, then got back in to close the garden gate and left from the main door to pick the bike up and drive away.
The process takes about 90 seconds, 2 minutes if I get delayed.
During those 90 seconds this morning I got a parking ticket because the bike was on the pavement.
I stopped the traffic warden who looked at me returning to the bike while issuing it (the sticker was already on though).
I asked him where am I supposed to park it while I close the door of the garden, because having a private space to park it in, I don't have a resident parking permit.
He said I should put the bike on the street because if a woman on a wheelchair goes past I would obstruct the way if the bike is on the pavement.
I said fine, but I left it there unlocked with the wheel facing the garden gate just to make sure that whoever walks past understands I'm just moving the vehicle in and out - if I parked on the street I would have got a fine for parking without resident permit.
He kept saying I can't obstruct the pavement so I just left and took the bike (he kept repeating it while I left too.. he was talking on his own as I was riding away lol).

I rang the council payment office and took it the other way round.
I spoke to a gent and said something along this line:
'I just rang to gather information about parking permit. I have a motorbike and I park it in my garden, the door of the garden is facing the pavement. Do I need a parking permit?' he obviously said no
I said 'ok, here's my problem. The garden gate closes only from inside, so when I push the bike in and out, then I have to go back in for about 60 seconds to close the gate, where do I leave the bike in the meantime to avoid tickets? Because it will be then on public ground so do I need a parking permit for those 60 seconds?'
He said 'you need a parking permit if you park on the street'
I said ' Yes, I understand but I don't park on the street, the bike is left unattended for 60-90 seconds while I close the gate and during those 60 seconds I'm on the public street.. will I get a fine?'
He said 'well if a traffic warden goes past and the bike is on the pavement you may get a fine, it's up to them'
I said 'ok, so you're telling me everyone who parks a vehicle in a garden or garage and leaves the vehicle on the public street or pavement unattended for 60 seconds while the close the gate will need a parking permit for those 60 seconds?'
He said that he didn't know how morotcyclists did, but if the pavement is not lowered and is public then I might get a ticket.
I said 'ok fine, just next door there are 2 garages, the pavement is lowered for access, but it's still public pavement, can I leave it there? I just need to move it 1 yard on the right'
He said he didn't know and I should ask a warden.

So eventually I said I got a ticket this way, he suggested I appeal and send pictures of the gate to give the complaints team a better picture of the situation, which I will do obviously tomorrow morning when it's light (at work now, so by the time I come back it'll be too dark for pictures).
He said it's very rare that the wardens issue tickets to vehicle that are being moved if they see the owner there, I said that yes he might not have seen me because the door is made of wood but he didn't wait even a minute before issuing it, because if he did wait I would have obviously not have been fined, but he also added it's up to them they could issue it anyway.

Just for reference I live in London - Islington borough.

Anything you would recommend I stress on in that email?
Any reference to official documents that I should bring up etc?

I'm attaching a picture of the area, the bike was there the red marker is.. with the front wheel facing the door

Many many thanks experts

A.
Incandescent
What you have described here comes under de minimis.

There have been previous cases at PATAS for motorists who had to leave their cars to open or close gates to business premises. AFAIK, all these appeals were allowed. You might find one to support you on the Key Cases list on the PATAS website, so have a look there. Others here may know the Case Reference Number which is quicker, so wait around a bit.

Only thing is to appeal it all the way means you will have to forego the discount option if they refuse your challenges.
aura
thanks for that..
I'd really be interested in knowing the answer to the question I asked them though, from them.
Where is somebody supposed to leave the vehicle whilst opening or closing gates?
The warden said on the street, but then again it'd be another fine for not displaying permit/ticket.. what do you think?
Can I play on the note 'there is no way to not get a ticket according to you'?
clark_kent
Do you have a crossover from the gate? If not then you are not meant to use it as access across the footway so your question is void as its not meant to be there at all. If you do have a crossover approved by the Council then it is designed to allow access to and from your property in which case stopping to lock the gate for a short period should be permitted as you are not parking.
aura
not exactly in front of the gate.. just next to it (see picture that i attached before) do you think it might count?
aura
Guys.. I jotted this down, would you mind checking and letting me know your opinions please?


Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to challenge a PCN I was unfairly issued yesterday morning by Civil Enforcement Officer CEO xxxx.
The PCN number is IZxxxxxxxx, Contravention code 62 - parked with one or more wheels on or over a foothpath or any part of a road other than carriageway.
The vehicle is a 50CC scooter, Peugeot, registration number xxxxx

My name is xxxxxi and I live at xxxxxx xx xxx, Islington.
Due to the increasing number of thefts in the area I park my scooter in my back garden so I didn't buy a parking permit because I never park on public land.

The garden is at the back of the property, corner between xxroad1xxx and xxxxroad2xxxx. The garden gate is on xxxxroad2xxxx and is the only entrance to the garden.
The gate can only be closed from inside.

Yesterday morning 04/11/2014 I have pushed my scooter out of the garden as usual and left it facing the garden door while I was closing the gate of the garden from the inside.
This process takes between 60 and 90 seconds: I go in the garden, lock it from inside, pick up my helmet that I leave in the garden prior to pushing the bike out (I cannot wear the helmet while pushing the bike out because it's a full face one and I have limited visibility since the door is narrow and the bike has to be pushed to a certain angle), and exit from the main door to take the scooter back.

During those 60 seconds I was issued the above mentioned parking ticket.
At my return the officer was still next to my bike so I have asked him clarifications, as he saw me getting off the bike to close the garden, but he just responded that I was parked on the pavement so he issued the ticket.

The bike was unlocked, the steering lock was unlocked and I had visible personal effects on the scooter - I had left the bike there intentionally to not make anyone think I was illegally parked on the road and left it intentionally with the front wheel facing the gate to give a clear sign that I was just closing the gate so it would have been a minute.

I have explained this to the officer that the bike was not technically parked as I was just closing the gate as he saw, but he said that it was not his problem.
I have then asked him where should I be leaving the bike during those 60 seconds when I must close my house gate before I leave, so he answered that I should leave it on the street but then I would get a ticket for parking without parking permit so he wouldn't know how can I leave my house without being fined.

After my enquiry, it seems that there is no way to leave my private property and securing my home without getting fined, because the outlined options were:
1) bike facing the gate while I close the gate - parking ticket for parking on pavement
2) bike left on the street while I close the gate - parking ticket for parking without parking permit
3) not leave the house - which is not an option really
4) leave the house without securing it - which again does not look like an option to me

I have called the council to enquity about parking permint and whether I will need one in order to park in my private property but the answer was obviously no.
I have then asked them if there was any special permit I can buy for closing a gate for 60 seconds every day but the answer was no.
I have checked your website

http://www.islington.gov.uk/services/parki...le_parking.aspx

but it only mentions motorbike bays (there isn't any bay near enough for me to park the bike and make sure nobody enters my property in my absence while I return).
The bays on the road are for parking permit holders, but I am not one because I park in my private property.

I therefore think my fine should be cancelled due to lack of options and instructions on how to temporarily leave a vehicle stalled while securing my property.

According to the Greater London Council Act 1974 - Section 15 (3) point d:

(3)A person shall not be convicted of an offence under this section with respect to a vehicle if he proves to the satisfaction of the court that the vehicle was parked—

(d)for the purpose of loading or unloading goods, and—

(i)the loading or unloading of the vehicle could not have been satisfactorily performed if it had not been so parked; and

(ii)the vehicle was not left unattended at any time while it was so parked.

In this case I was picking up goods (my helmet that was inside the garden next to the gate), the loading would not have been satisfactory if the vehicle was not parked because I would have left my property not secured and also the vehicle was not left unattended because I was just at the other side of the gate, closing the gate and the vehicle was never more than 10 yards away from me at the furthest point of my trip to the main door.

With this email I am appealing the officer decision to fine me for this given all the above mentioned points, and asking for my fine to be placed on hold until the decision on this appeal is made.

In addition to this, I would like to receive some clear instructions on how and where I should place my vehicle while securing my property 60 seconds when I leave in order to not incur in further fines and be compliant with the rules.

Please find enclose some pictures showing my bike, my gate and the surrounding area.

Thank you for your time and collaboration.
Looking forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely,
xxxxx xxxx
timbstoke
Far too long winded and emotional IMO. I'd start with something like this:

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to challenge a PCN issued yesterday morning by Civil Enforcement Officer CEO xxxx.
The PCN number is IZxxxxxxxx, Contravention code 62 - parked with one or more wheels on or over a foothpath or any part of a road other than carriageway.
The vehicle is a 50CC scooter, Peugeot, registration number xxxxx

The vehicle was left in place only while I locked the gate to my garden, where the vehicle is usually stored, and was left for no more than 90 seconds. The attendant was still present when I returned to the vehicle. The bike was unlocked, the steering lock was unlocked and I had visible personal effects on the scooter.

Given the short time the vehicle was parked, I would suggest that any contravention is de minimis, and would ask for the council's discretion in cancelling the ticket on this occasion. I would also draw your attention to the Islington Council Parking Enforcement Protocol, a copy of which can be found at https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/1498...%20Protocol.pdf. This clearly provides an exemption to enforcement in the case when a gate or barrier to premises which a vehicle needs access to, is being opened or closed and there is no other practical place for vehicle to wait.

If you choose to reject my appeal, please provide the latest copy of your Parking Enforcement Protocol, and a copy of any TRO's which are relevant to xxx Road, so that I can determine whether or not to appeal further.

Hugs and Kisses


Note: the gates exemption doesn't apply to pavement parking or even residents parking, but it does show that it's a valid reason to park in contravention, so supports your de minimis argument. There may be a better way to phrase it though, I'm sure somebody will be along soon if so.
DancingDad
As far as I can see, Timbstoke's suggestion is as good as any.
IMO keep it simple and include discretion and the protocol.

If they reject with the normal load of footway parking damages footpaths and it's been banned in London for years without responding to those two points you have a stronger case to take forward.
aura
I sent my long winded one just 5 minutes before you posted those.. bugger.. impatience eh?
see what they say.. i will write that at second appeal should they reject it.. sad.gif
will keep you posted
thanks!
DancingDad
See what comes back, what you wrote isn't the end of the world and does show your dilemma and the problems that "zero tolerance" parking enforcement causes.
timbstoke
FWIW, the exemption for locking gates can be found by searching for "gate" in the whatdotheyknow document I linked earlier. As I mentioned, pavement or residents parking isn't included, but the following are:

Code 01: Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours
Code 02: Parked or loading/unloading in a restricted street where waiting and loading/unloading restrictions are in force
Code 22: Re-parked in the same parking place or zone within one hour after leaving

So if there's a convenient spot that isn't in a residents bay - for example a loading bay or a small gap between bays, it's worth noting for the future. I notice you have a dropped kerb which goes to a garage - is that your garage? I believe (but not 100%) that there is an exemption for parking across a dropped kerb which gives access to premises as long as you have the consent of the owner of the premises.
aura
no loading bay, only resident/pay and display.. and pavement
the garage is not mine but is never in use.. i BELIEVE it belongs to my landlord and he stores stuff in there..
I parked in front of that garage today.. on the street but facing the garage.. for my 60 seconds smile.gif

can 02 restricted street apply to resident/pay and display?

these last 2 days I parked on the street.. I thought it'd get less noticed and if only for 60 seconds the warden will take longer to check if i have a parking permit, but pavement.. even if he's on the other side of the street will get noticed and will head there skipping the cars inbetween..
it's mental though smile.gif

I'm quite paranoid now, I believe it's the same guy doing the same streets .. so now I'm thinking he's out to get me anywhere I park it hehe but that's just me..
timbstoke
QUOTE (aura @ Wed, 5 Nov 2014 - 10:29) *
can 02 restricted street apply to resident/pay and display?


Probably not. You don't choose the contravention, the attendant does, and code 12 (Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking place or zone without either clearly
displaying a valid permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place, or without payment of the parking charge) fits better if you're parked in a bay - although there is a whole other appeal avenue for the ambiguous wording of that particular contravention.

If you "have" to be in contravention in order to lock your gate, you ideally want to lead him into giving you a contravention for something that specifically allows you to lock your gate. Still, that's for next time. For now, I'd suggest searching the forum for "Islington" and reading through how other people have gotten on while you wait for the council's response - it'll give you a good idea of mistakes they're prone to and a feel for the process you're going through.
aura
Hi guys, your opinion:

i appealed 21 days ago - no response yet. When I sent the email 21 days ago I got this autoreply:

Thank you for your email which has been received by Islington Parking Services. Our target deadline for a response is 10 working days. On occasions we do get more enquiries than usual and it takes longer for us to reply. In the unlikely event you have not heard from us within 15 working days, please telephone 020 7527 2000, quoting the Penalty Charge Notice (Parking Ticket) number. We will ensure you are not disadvantaged by the wait.
If you have not provided a Parking Ticket number OR a VRM (we need both of these if possible), please resend your email with this information as we will be unable to process your enquiry without this.
Thank you
Islington Parking Services
PO Box 2019
Pershore
WR10 9BN

do i need to ring or shall I just wait until they come back to me? I mean, I'm assuming it's canceled if they don't respond to the challenge and I didn't get anything in my mail.. right?
hcandersen
Whatever you do, pl stop using the word 'parked' when you mean stationary.

Parked is a legal concept which turns on specific facts. While all parked vehicles are stationary, not all stationary vehicles are parked.
clark_kent
QUOTE (aura @ Tue, 25 Nov 2014 - 16:32) *
do i need to ring or shall I just wait until they come back to me? I mean, I'm assuming it's canceled if they don't respond to the challenge and I didn't get anything in my mail.. right?


If you go to the online payment page it should tell you the current status, ie if its cancelled there will be nothing to pay

aura
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Wed, 26 Nov 2014 - 11:33) *
If you go to the online payment page it should tell you the current status, ie if its cancelled there will be nothing to pay



It still says £110, nothing else.. I think that if they don't come back to me within a certain amount of time then it'd be automatically canceled, so I'm not sure whether I should call them to remind them or just keep it as it is until I hear from them.
I wouldn't ever want that since the auto response says 'if you don't hear from us within 15 days please call', if i don't call it would invalidate my appeal? Not sure.. thoughts?
clark_kent
QUOTE (aura @ Wed, 26 Nov 2014 - 14:49) *
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Wed, 26 Nov 2014 - 11:33) *
If you go to the online payment page it should tell you the current status, ie if its cancelled there will be nothing to pay
It still says £110, nothing else.. I think that if they don't come back to me within a certain amount of time then it'd be automatically canceled, so I'm not sure whether I should call them to remind them or just keep it as it is until I hear from them. I wouldn't ever want that since the auto response says 'if you don't hear from us within 15 days please call', if i don't call it would invalidate my appeal? Not sure.. thoughts?


I suggest reading the reverse of the PCN before making incorrect assumptions happy.gif

aura
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Wed, 26 Nov 2014 - 15:39) *
I suggest reading the reverse of the PCN before making incorrect assumptions happy.gif


no mention of that.
it only says that you can appeal either by writing to a po box or by email to an email address, i have written the email and got the autoresponse pasted above.

http://www.which.co.uk/cars/driving/drivin...parking-ticket/
here it says they have 56 days then it MUST be canceled.
I'm just not sure whether the email I sent is considered formal or informal.
Islington council doesn't give you any other way of appealing.


Appeal the parking ticket/clamp/removal fee formally

If you're appealing against clamping fees and the council doesn't respond within 56 days of receiving your letter of appeal, it must cancel the PCN parking ticket and refund the release fee you've paid.

If the council rejects your informal parking ticket appeal, you will be given the opportunity to appeal formally. This is called 'making formal representations', and the council will inform you how to do this.

Michael Gibson
Your response to the PCN is informal; responses to the NtO are the formal ones.
clark_kent
QUOTE (aura @ Wed, 26 Nov 2014 - 16:15) *
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Wed, 26 Nov 2014 - 15:39) *
I suggest reading the reverse of the PCN before making incorrect assumptions happy.gif
no mention of that. it only says that you can appeal either by writing to a po box or by email to an email address, i have written the email and got the autoresponse pasted above. http://www.which.co.uk/cars/driving/drivin...parking-ticket/ here it says they have 56 days then it MUST be canceled. I'm just not sure whether the email I sent is considered formal or informal. Islington council doesn't give you any other way of appealing. Appeal the parking ticket/clamp/removal fee formally If you're appealing against clamping fees and the council doesn't respond within 56 days of receiving your letter of appeal, it must cancel the PCN parking ticket and refund the release fee you've paid. If the council rejects your informal parking ticket appeal, you will be given the opportunity to appeal formally. This is called 'making formal representations', and the council will inform you how to do this.


If it really doesn't say that if you appeal before the notice to owner then you still have to follow the instructions on it when it arrives then the PCN is invalid, but I doubt that's actually the case.

aura
QUOTE (Michael Gibson @ Wed, 26 Nov 2014 - 16:42) *
Your response to the PCN is informal; responses to the NtO are the formal ones.


ahh that might explain the back of the pcn too.
I was wondering if the bit I have highlighted in yellow is legal? Basically they're saying you can challenge it, but we can decide to ignore it and send you the nto anyway.
I'm attaching picture, if you see any flaw it'd be useful to know smile.gif

aura
whoo hoo!

Just got this smile.gif

Thank you for your letter regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

The Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) was issued because the vehicle was parked with one or more wheels on any part of an urban road other than a carriageway (footway parking).

On this occasion I am satisfied the vehicle was parked on the footway for a short period as you were closing the gates of the property.

I am satisfied a contravention has occurred however on this occasion I have decided to exercise discretion and cancel the PCN.

However please note future contraventions may not be treated the same way.

As the ticket has now been cancelled, there is no need for you to take any further action.



Yours sincerely
Incandescent
Well done ! You'll have to be more careful in future. Try asking the council how you can park your bike inside your property and still be able to get it out to ride it.
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