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ConfusedDaze
Hi Guys,

So was driving through Islington in the early hours of this morning (2:30am)

Obviously there's no NIP yet so not a lot to fill out.

It was a SpeedCurb type of speed camera on Junction Road A400 just before Archway (so a pretty main road).

Obviously I went straight over the camera at just under 30mph (speedo indicated) thinking all was fine and dandy and then it flashed and flashed again.

I haven't been in Islington in over a year and can't say I read any local newspapers that showed me the entire borough was turning into a 20mph zone.

To be honest I can't even say there was a lot of signage, I went back and looked again and there are road markings and one tiny 20mph sign right at the end of the camera markings.

Having said all of that, what do you think the likely outcome of this one will be considering 28mph (I'm guessing) is wildly over the 10%+2 ?

Google Maps Streeview of Camera

Is the location link, all the side roads show 20 on the entrance but its not really clear the main road is a 20mph.

I have looked at street view since and can see a few 20 signs that are written on the actual road itself, the only two signs signs I can see are the one at the end of the speed camera and one right the way back near where the road splits off from Kentish town, both are ridiculously small.

To be totally honest none of them at all were noticeable, double checking them now I can see them because I am going out of my way to look for them.

I would understand if this was a small backroad past a school and in a heavily residential area, but it's not, its a main road coming from Archway to Kings Cross, through London and to the best of my knowledge it always has been a 30mph zone, now I know thats not a defence in any shape or form, but still.

Any advice on this one before it comes back would be cool.

Thanks
CD
southpaw82
What sort of advice do you want?

ConfusedDaze
Well if the thing flashed twice and its the digital type, then I'm pretty sure a NIP will follow sooner or later.

Do I bother doing anything ?

I've read the ACPO guidelines for forces to follow is up to 31mph in a 20mph for a Speed Awareness Course (apparently that is a recent change).

Although I have no idea where Islington lies on the ACPO guidelines and if it's a force or camera partnership that hands out the tickets in the London Borough of Islington.

So just wanted some help really.

Also having looked at the map and seeing it was a main road and the area, do you think I have any chance fighting it on the grounds that it's just not sensible to have a main road as a 20mph zone ?

(Oh and thank you btw for your help)

Thanks
CD
southpaw82
Whether it's sensible or not is irrelevant. What matters is whether the traffic order and signs are lawful. If you're the registered keeper you'll know within 14 days. The Metropolitan Police are the relevant police force.
The Rookie
There are two ways to impose a 20mph speed limit
1/ a 20mph limit, this requires terminal signs at the start and regular repeaters
2/ a 20mph zone, this requires terminal signs at the start and traffic calming to act as repeaters every 100metres or less.

You need to determine which of the two systems is being used and if the signage (repeater or calming features such as pillows, humps, pinch points etc) is compliant.
crashdetective
20 zones as enforceable limits Simon?
The Rookie
Yes.....
crashdetective
I'm not saying you're wrong but there are lots of 'ifs' in the zones. Many of the orders still carried the higher limit (maybe that's changed with the predominance of these new 20 limits?).

Self enforcing principle meant they were very low down on any hit list and I would imagine even more so nowadays...

Equally though, if all ducks were lined up and there had been complaints, it's possible I suppose.
Logician
The police were very half-hearted about enforcing 20 limits, they more or less said they might if they had nothing better to do. I suspect that in Islington there has been a forthright exchange of views with the council and the police are now on board with enforcement, basing that purely on the press coverage.
ConfusedDaze
Thank you for all the help so far, by the way.

I'm not entirely sure that they are compliant - by your definition;

1) It can't be compliant with a 20mph limit unless the size of the signs that I showed you in my Google Street Maps link are valid, they're no bigger than my hand ! Also I'm not sure speed limits written onto the actual road count as at the best of times they are not really readable. I think there are posters coming into Islington announcing it is a 20mph borough, but not much else. Will find these on Street View again - again on the night they were un-noticeable.
2) It can't be compliant with a 20mph zone as such as Junction Road has zero traffic calming measures on it, barring the speed camera.

I'm guessing I will get a NIP through on this one unless the Metropolitan police decide to use common sense and not issue a ticket when I'm doing 28mph on a main road which was completely empty at 2:30am and at best was under the impression it was a 30mph road.

This Islington speed limit stuff is madness, I'm all for having it on residential side roads or past schools, but on main junction roads, where at both ends where the road leaves Islington Borough its a 30mph and there's next to no signage that's readable that would indicate otherwise.

Also reading from here which are the last guidelines the ACPO released : http://www.acpo.police.uk/documents/unifor...safer-roads.pdf - suggests there is a course of some sort that's been in existence since November 2013 that I might be placed on if they do NIP me. (Also everything they say towards the bottom of the document indicates that at least the ACPO are not entirely behind enforcing a 20mph limit on a road like the one I was on).

But here : http://www.acpo.police.uk/documents/unifor...rs-guidance.pdf - it says NDORS courses are not offered in 20mph limits/zones (maybe the document is slightly out of date compared to the one above).

Also here : http://www.islingtontribune.com/news/2014/...mit-was-not-bei (no mention of speed awareness courses or anything similar just straight up fixed penalties, I do realise this was part of a highly visible 1hr stop and politicise sort of thing but still).

And here : http://content.met.police.uk/News/Road-har...d=1257246764070 (Met Police News Page on event, again no mention of SAC and even a court summons !)

Anyway again thank you for all your help in the matter.
The Rookie
The Roundels on the road are irrelevant as they don't constitute part of the signage, what matters is the size and placing of the terminal signs as you enter the limit and then that there are regular repeaters, this can be pretty small and still comply, on my iPad right now so can't really check the details.
Barry S
Note that both Camden and Islington are slapping 20 limits around willy nilly nowadays. A thought occurs to me: Does a 20mph limit with a terminal sign at the Mornington Crescent end of Camden High Street extend into Islington (TRO permitting) in this way, or would both boroughs need additional signage at the boundary?
ConfusedDaze
The Islington Borough boundary is at the Tufnell Park end of Junction Road, as Fortress Road across the Junction has Camden signage.

Entry Point
At the Entry to the beginning of the A400 that lies inside Islington (where their implementation of the 20mph zone begins) there are two 20mph signs that are visible on Street View, I'd argue that neither was noticeable and I'd need to check to see if that setup is still the current setup.

End of Camera Run
The next repeater after that isn't conveniently until the end of the camera area and is a miniscule sign to say the least.

Welcome to Islington Banner
There is a handly 20mph zone welcome to Islington banner long after you've actually entered Islington and passed a Speed Camera, which is nice.

Welcome to Islington Banner 2
Another welcome to Islington 20mph banner, towards Archway, long after the side of the road that the banner is on, has entered Islington and passed a Speed Camera.

Archway Entry Point
Looking against the direction of Travel, you can see the entry onto Junction Road from the Archway side, because even though the junction around this road is inside the Borough of Islington, it is managed by TFL therefore the speed limit is 30mph.

Apparently the A400 on the Camden side aka Fortress Road, is also a 20mph zone/limit (not sure which) and the signage again is poor at best, with literally no markings on the road and tiny 20mph signs again.

From what I can make out the A400 until it gets to Camden Town is also a TFL route, so therefore 30mph, where it branches off at Camden you get some signage in a VERY busy area indicating that it is a 20mph zone.
Entry to A400 at Camden where 20mph zone begins


To be honest with you and I hope common sense prevails, this whole thing is a total mess. Especially with TFL roads through Islington still at 30mph. They really haven't thought this through at all.

Again I have no problem with residential streets and streets with schools and the like having sensibly low speed limits, but this 30mph here, then 20mph there, then 30mph here, on roads with poor and inadequate signage and on roads you simply don't expect to have the speed limit set that they have set is really counter productive and its going to catch a lot of honest people out.

Anyway again all thanks for taking the time to listen to me, in the end I can't really do anything the law is the law and I'll have to end up suffering the consequences I just think Islington and Camden are being slightly disingenuous with the way they have done this 20mph zoning on main roads.
The Rookie
There MUST be terminal signs everywhere you enter a 20 from a 30, sounds like the aren't, you need to backtrack your route and see if there were or not.
Jlc
Some good information here.

Although the signs are small they are probably of sufficient (legal) size. See TSGRD diagram 670.
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