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WhyAyeMan
Hi all,

I appreciate the particular topic of parking on a verge and getting a PCN has probably been somewhat done to death on here, but I would nevertheless appreciate some advice.

I parked my car yesterday on a grass verge just off Skinnerburn Road in Newcastle (to the west of the Quayside). I usually park further to the West in the business park and walk into town however I was running late for work. Every day since I started my new job I have seen people park in this area, so it didn't occur to me it was illegal (not that this is a defence).

I was quite surprised then to see a parking ticket on my windscreen when I got back. I observed that, as usual, there were other cars in the area, so I wandered over to see if they had tickets. Imagine my surprise when none of the other cars there had tickets on them.

I googled it and it would seem that I am in the wrong, and had the other cars (which I know for a fact are there every day, all day long) also had tickets, I would have just scrubbed it up to experience, but feel I am being singled out here.

I am just wondering if it is worth appealing, considering they appear to pick and choose who they do and don't want to give tickets to.

First off, the ticket itself:-





You can see a photo of my car on the night - clearly not causing any obstruction to the road (even though I now realise the verge is considered part of the street).



This is a photo of the area in daylight... you can see my tyremarks.



This photo shows where I was parked in relation to the cars that did NOT get tickets.



And another at street level (courtesy of google)



Here you can see a van and car parked illegally - I usually see the Mini every day - why do they not receive a ticket?





As usual tonight, lots of cars to be seen, none with tickets on the windscreen:-





Obviously no way of proving that they have all been there all day, but still, I see cars there every day without fail. If they were regularly ticketing people, then they would not be there, no?

So, chalk it up to experience or do I have grounds for complaint here? I hold my hands up and admit as the law goes, I am in the wrong, but I feel rather hard done by here.

Any opinions welcome.

Thanks, Paul
peterguk
Wrong forum. A mod. will move.

BTW, others seemingly getting away with it does not make your PCN invalid.
Incandescent
The reason they seem to be "picking and choosing" is that there is a single-yellow line where you parked that restricts parking on certain days and between certain hours. So if you're parked there outside the restricted hours you are in the clear. However, if you park there during the restricted hours, even if clear of the carriageway, the yellow line restriction applies to the whole road including footways and verges, thus making you bang-to-rights. Sorry to have to say it. Many, many, people who come on this forum seem to think yellow line restrictions only apply to the carriageway, (the tarmac). In fact they apply from the middle of the carriageway up to the edge and beyond it to the property line.

Other thing to mention is that Newcastle-upon-Tyne is a big place and many roads aren't patrolled by CEOs regularly, so people will inevitably "get away with it". Your problem is that your parking coincided with one of their visits !
hcandersen
It baffles me as to why, irrespective of any parking restrictions, a motorist would deem it acceptable to drive on to a verge and thereby cause damage the costs of repair of which will then fall to the hard-pressed council taxpayer.

I'm also intrigued why we have a photo of your car at night if the PCN was timed at 09.39. Did you park at night?
WhyAyeMan
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 29 Oct 2014 - 21:21) *
The reason they seem to be "picking and choosing" is that there is a single-yellow line where you parked that restricts parking on certain days and between certain hours. So if you're parked there outside the restricted hours you are in the clear. However, if you park there during the restricted hours, even if clear of the carriageway, the yellow line restriction applies to the whole road including footways and verges, thus making you bang-to-rights. Sorry to have to say it. Many, many, people who come on this forum seem to think yellow line restrictions only apply to the carriageway, (the tarmac). In fact they apply from the middle of the carriageway up to the edge and beyond it to the property line.

Other thing to mention is that Newcastle-upon-Tyne is a big place and many roads aren't patrolled by CEOs regularly, so people will inevitably "get away with it". Your problem is that your parking coincided with one of their visits !


There is a yellow line where the others park but they don't get a ticket. Fair enough I am bang to rights, but why are they getting away with it? If anything they are virtually blocking a footpath which is even worse! Incidentally I've seen cars here for months, people still park here, if they were ticketing people even once a week, I doubt there would be cars here much, if at all, but I get a ticket the very first time I do it, find this a bit hard to believe; I know I'm unlucky but to me this takes the piss.


QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 29 Oct 2014 - 21:42) *
It baffles me as to why, irrespective of any parking restrictions, a motorist would deem it acceptable to drive on to a verge and thereby cause damage the costs of repair of which will then fall to the hard-pressed council taxpayer.

I'm also intrigued why we have a photo of your car at night if the PCN was timed at 09.39. Did you park at night?


The pic of my car is at 5:45pm, it was dark. I'm not really sure I get your point here? I didn't know I had the PCN until 5:45, it was issued at 9:49.
hcandersen
You didn't tell us when you returned to or parked the car. Now we know.

As regards my other point, it's just a rant really. The authority should either send an army of CEOs to the site for a week or barrier-off the area. It's verge, and it's there at great expense to the taxpayers to enhance the amenity value of the local environment: it's not a parking lot.
DancingDad
I am wondering if that as they were parked against the fence while you were nearer the carriageway they had crossed an invisible line between enforced and un-enforced area?

Sounds strange but I recently got a map from my local parking dept showing the extent of enforcement where a private company has seemed to have taken over from the council in enforcing a highway.
The strange bit was that on the map, with detailed boundaries of enforcement, the line was along the centre of the footway. Dual carriageway, red route, buslane and wide footway. With the implication from the map that if I parked against the building line a CEO would wander past and not give it a second look.
(I'm not trying it) I also know specific footways local to me where half the footway is the property of the shop owners who are responsible for maintenance and can park on their bit. As can others with their permission. I do take advantage of this.
This is against convention that lines apply across footway and verges and include private property but does exist.

I think you are probable bang to rights and may well be some logic to why you and not others but nevertheless, maybe asking the council the question, clearly stating that you have seen others regularly parking there and not getting PCNs so formed an expectation that it was allowed. If in error please explain why in your case and why that does not apply to others.
Finish with an apology if you did err in your expectation and ask that they apply discretion for an honest mistake.
Nothing lost in doing so within the discount period and you never know, they may. They may also mess up the answer and even if they don't, you will still be able to pay the discount as they should re-offer.
WhyAyeMan
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 29 Oct 2014 - 22:34) *
You didn't tell us when you returned to or parked the car. Now we know.

As regards my other point, it's just a rant really. The authority should either send an army of CEOs to the site for a week or barrier-off the area. It's verge, and it's there at great expense to the taxpayers to enhance the amenity value of the local environment: it's not a parking lot.


OK fair enough, I understand. I see what you're saying about the grass verges and the damage car users do, however, in this case, its a very run down part of town that has been neglected for as long as I've been alive and then some. I would certainly agree with you if this was a "nice" area, but its quite the opposite in fairness; indeed, I was more worried about coming back to a broken window than a parking ticket!


QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 29 Oct 2014 - 23:15) *
I am wondering if that as they were parked against the fence while you were nearer the carriageway they had crossed an invisible line between enforced and un-enforced area?

Sounds strange but I recently got a map from my local parking dept showing the extent of enforcement where a private company has seemed to have taken over from the council in enforcing a highway.
The strange bit was that on the map, with detailed boundaries of enforcement, the line was along the centre of the footway. Dual carriageway, red route, buslane and wide footway. With the implication from the map that if I parked against the building line a CEO would wander past and not give it a second look.
(I'm not trying it) I also know specific footways local to me where half the footway is the property of the shop owners who are responsible for maintenance and can park on their bit. As can others with their permission. I do take advantage of this.
This is against convention that lines apply across footway and verges and include private property but does exist.

I think you are probable bang to rights and may well be some logic to why you and not others but nevertheless, maybe asking the council the question, clearly stating that you have seen others regularly parking there and not getting PCNs so formed an expectation that it was allowed. If in error please explain why in your case and why that does not apply to others.
Finish with an apology if you did err in your expectation and ask that they apply discretion for an honest mistake.
Nothing lost in doing so within the discount period and you never know, they may. They may also mess up the answer and even if they don't, you will still be able to pay the discount as they should re-offer.


Interesting, I guess that is possible, there is some building work (quite extensive) going on nearby at Forth Banks, but if there is some kind of parking "area" then its certainly not in any way sign posted.

I think its looking increasingly likely I will do as you suggest; there is a small chance they may waive it, I wrote an apologetic email to the council once when my GF accidentally parked against a dipped kerb, but hadn't received the original ticket (maybe someone stole it off the windscreen). The first she heard was the letter saying she now owed £80. I just basically apologised and offered to pay the lower fee and they actually just waived it which was surprising, so its definitely worth a try.

Thanks so far for the advice.
Bogsy
No waiting signs should be placed every 60 metres. Were you parked within 60 m of one?

Yellow lines should only be placed where a to g of the following applies

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/1

In a day and age where vehicles considerably outnumber the number of marked parking places I cannot help but wonder why authorities do not use verge space to provide more parking provision. Where you parked seems to be causing no obstruction or danger so what public interest is served by penalising you? That verge could be easily turned into legitimate parking space but the council just can't be bothered. If parking regularly occurs here then you must say so and argue that the lack of previous enforcement gave rise to a "legitimate expectation" that parking in that location was acceptable.
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