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princess88
On the 16th Sept I was issued a PCN by Tower Hamlets under contravention code 12R 'Parked in a residents' or shared use parking place or zone without clearly displaying a permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place, or without payment of the parking charge (Residents Bay)'

That day I had scratched out a 5 hourly permit for 8:55 which was due to expiry for 13:55. At 13:30 I reached my vehicle and scratched out another one for 13:40.
When I got back to my car a couple hours later I had noticed the PCN on my windscreen sad.gif

The PCN was issued at 13:49- 13:55, however my permit was scratched from 13:40.

I appealed this the same day and got a letter of rejection a week later. I am quite surprised they have responded quickly. In my appeal I requested photographic evidence. They have responded saying that there is no legal requirement for photographic evidence. Is this true?


Today I have also received a NTO with the amount increased to £130.00. The rejection was received whilst I was abroad. I have only seen both letters this morning.

I am now unsure what to do. If I appeal again, and it is rejected will I end up having to pay £130?


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princess88
Here are the NTO letter received today.


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Gan
This needs moving to the council tickets forum

Use the Report button to alert the mods
princess88
QUOTE (Gan @ Sat, 18 Oct 2014 - 15:37) *
This needs moving to the council tickets forum

Use the Report button to alert the mods



Thank you for letting me know. I have informed them.
DancingDad
Just to be clear, you put up a new permit at 13.40 ?
Not altered the original ?
I also assume there is no maximum time for vehicles with a permit to park where you were?

Assuming nothing to stop you putting a new permit on, straight decision for an adjudicator on who is telling the truth.

There isn't any legal requirement for photos but in this day and age, lack of them will tell against the council. Having refused your request to provide photos, they will need to explain why any turn up as well if some do. Have you looked on their website? I thought TH was one that stuck photos on line ?

You are in it for the full £130 now so may as well plan on taking this all the way to appeal at adjudication, nothing to lose and everything to gain.

So let's look at all the relevant things, starting with a copy of the PCN, location, what you wrote to them, pictures of signs pls.
Have you still got pictures of permits and did you take any of your own photos?
princess88
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 18 Oct 2014 - 16:10) *
Just to be clear, you put up a new permit at 13.40 ?
Not altered the original ?
I also assume there is no maximum time for vehicles with a permit to park where you were?

Assuming nothing to stop you putting a new permit on, straight decision for an adjudicator on who is telling the truth.

There isn't any legal requirement for photos but in this day and age, lack of them will tell against the council. Having refused your request to provide photos, they will need to explain why any turn up as well if some do. Have you looked on their website? I thought TH was one that stuck photos on line ?

You are in it for the full £130 now so may as well plan on taking this all the way to appeal at adjudication, nothing to lose and everything to gain.

So let's look at all the relevant things, starting with a copy of the PCN, location, what you wrote to them, pictures of signs pls.
Have you still got pictures of permits and did you take any of your own photos?



Yes I went to the car to get something then thought I might as well put a new permit seen as I only had another 15 mins for the first permit to expire.
I didn't alter the original permit.

The signage just says Resident permit holders only (Zone C1) - Mon - Fri 8:30am - 5:30pm.
On the back of the scratch card it says its valid for 5 hours.

I have looked on their website it only takes me to the screen for payment only. There isn't anything else.. I went on this morning and there was a drop down bar for payment of £65 and £130.00.

I have still got the permits and no I didn't take any pics of where my car was except for the signage.





princess88
Here are the permits that was used



Nagoya
Looks like you were parked in zone C1 according to the sign but the scratch card says only valid in zone C3 so contravention appears to be correct.
princess88
QUOTE (Nagoya @ Sat, 18 Oct 2014 - 20:16) *
Looks like you were parked in zone C1 according to the sign but the scratch card says only valid in zone C3 so contravention appears to be correct.


mellow.gif great .. That did cross my mind but what doubted me was the fact that the ticket wasn't issued earlier in the day but just before the first permit was due to expire.

I have been told by my friend who gave me the permit that it is fine to park in any C zone.

I really don't want to pay £130 sad.gif

Have they used the correct contravention code?
Mad Mick V
Regardless of what the Council says re the photos you must check on their website to see if the CEO took photos ---you need to input the PCN number and your VRM.

Given that you did display something and the contravention is that you didn't display I would be surprised if the CEO didn't take photos.

Regarding the contravention, you are on a sticky wicket because Code 12 indicates "for that place" and it seems that you displayed something for another place.

However since you "paid" (the voucher must have monetary value) I would have a go at the wrong contravention and suggest a Code 19 should have been used --"Parked in a residents' or shared use parking place or zone either displaying an invalid permit or voucher or pay and display ticket, or after the expiry of paid for time".

Mick
princess88
QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sun, 19 Oct 2014 - 09:08) *
Regardless of what the Council says re the photos you must check on their website to see if the CEO took photos ---you need to input the PCN number and your VRM.

Given that you did display something and the contravention is that you didn't display I would be surprised if the CEO didn't take photos.

Regarding the contravention, you are on a sticky wicket because Code 12 indicates "for that place" and it seems that you displayed something for another place.

However since you "paid" (the voucher must have monetary value) I would have a go at the wrong contravention and suggest a Code 19 should have been used --"Parked in a residents' or shared use parking place or zone either displaying an invalid permit or voucher or pay and display ticket, or after the expiry of paid for time".

Mick


Hi Mick thank you for your response.
I have gone back to TH website but cannot see any option to view photographic evidence. It only asks for my Penalty Notice number. Quite strange.

So do you think I have a leg to stand on by appealing again and stating that they've used the wrong contravention code?
Do I need to mention anything about the Zones? I am not sure when my deadline is to submit my appeal.
It says I need to make representations by the end of the 28 day period

I've had a look at the NTO frm what I've understood the 28-day period is from the what the NTO is dated? 17th October?

I was thinking it's from the date of my penalty charge - 16th September??
DancingDad
I thnk MMV is right re the contravention but I wouldn't try any challenge based on wrong contravention yet.

Situation seems to be
You put permits in car and correctly scratched them.
CEO put on PCN, presumably as permits for wrong zone, but chose a higher level contravention.
Difficult to believe no pictures taken but from rejection, if there were any, TH has no desire for you to see them.
They have made a statement that a CEO would have fully inspected the vehicle.
So I would suspect that his notes either include incorrect permits or simply say none seen.

This situation where TH is possibly not telling the truth or hiding evidence is not in their favour.

I would challenge within the 28 day period (starts on 2nd working day after date of NTO) with more or less what you wrote in informal challenge. We don't know exact wording but I assume something like "Why did I get a PCN when I had displayed correctly scratched permits and they were clearly displayed. Here's copies of them"

With a similar challenge to the NTO, the council has a few options.
They can accept. Don't hold your breath.
They can continue to deny any permits present and any photos. Which IMO should be a win for you as long as you come across as honest to an adjudicator.
They can reject saying yup, permits were there but the wrong ones which opens the appeal to adjudicator for wrong contravention and failing to consider at informal stage.

No guarantees but will cost no more then the £130 for trying.
Mad Mick V
+1

The Council's letter is going to be key because, as things become clearer (CEO's notes etc), I am of the opinion that it will demonstrate fettered discretion.

Mick
princess88
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 20 Oct 2014 - 08:33) *
I thnk MMV is right re the contravention but I wouldn't try any challenge based on wrong contravention yet.

Situation seems to be
You put permits in car and correctly scratched them.
CEO put on PCN, presumably as permits for wrong zone, but chose a higher level contravention.
Difficult to believe no pictures taken but from rejection, if there were any, TH has no desire for you to see them.
They have made a statement that a CEO would have fully inspected the vehicle.
So I would suspect that his notes either include incorrect permits or simply say none seen.

This situation where TH is possibly not telling the truth or hiding evidence is not in their favour.

I would challenge within the 28 day period (starts on 2nd working day after date of NTO) with more or less what you wrote in informal challenge. We don't know exact wording but I assume something like "Why did I get a PCN when I had displayed correctly scratched permits and they were clearly displayed. Here's copies of them"

With a similar challenge to the NTO, the council has a few options.
They can accept. Don't hold your breath.
They can continue to deny any permits present and any photos. Which IMO should be a win for you as long as you come across as honest to an adjudicator.
They can reject saying yup, permits were there but the wrong ones which opens the appeal to adjudicator for wrong contravention and failing to consider at informal stage.

No guarantees but will cost no more then the £130 for trying.


What I'm hoping is that the warden did not look at the New permit and issued me a ticket thinking that the permit that was displayed was the one due to expiry for 13:55 because the time stated is 13:49-13:55. Do you know if I was supposed to move my car when placing another permit?

DancingDad
QUOTE
Do you know if I was supposed to move my car when placing another permit?

Read the back of the permits..specifically says to do what you did.

Issue is more then likely what Mick said, wrong zone. Admit that at this stage and you are sunk.
However, they have given hope by the way they have dealt with your informal.

Play it the way I suggested and hope they continue to mess it up. Gives you a good chance of winning. Not 100% but far better then 50/50
princess88
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 20 Oct 2014 - 21:21) *
QUOTE
Do you know if I was supposed to move my car when placing another permit?

Read the back of the permits..specifically says to do what you did.

Issue is more then likely what Mick said, wrong zone. Admit that at this stage and you are sunk.
However, they have given hope by the way they have dealt with your informal.

Play it the way I suggested and hope they continue to mess it up. Gives you a good chance of winning. Not 100% but far better then 50/50


Thank you DD. I have read the terms of the scratchcard and can see number 5 & 6 is where I went wrong sad.gif

I am writing up my challenge as we speak - will it be fine if I share it with you lot? Would appreciate it if you can check if it's okay.
DancingDad
Do post it up here for comment before sending.
We often see people who do not and miss important points totally
princess88
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 20 Oct 2014 - 21:52) *
Do post it up here for comment before sending.
We often see people who do not and miss important points totally


Good Evening,

Here is the first appeal I sent in September...
Do I resend the same again?


Dear Sir/Madam

Re: VRN: .......
I am challenging your parking charge notice dated 16.09.2014 on the grounds that this contravention did not occur.

This PCN was issued under contravention code 12R 'Parked in a residents' or shared use parking place or zone without clearly displaying a permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place, or without payment of the parking charge (Residents Bay)'

The PCN was issued at 13:49 to 13:55, however a valid permit was clearly displayed which was scratched for 13:40 (see attached image). For that reason, I believe this PCN is invalid.

I would like to request a copy of all the images that you have of my vehicle. I understand that the Data Protection Act entitles me to all of this information.

If you are unable to provide any of the requested documents please provide a reason.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours Sincerely,
DancingDad
Change "I would like to request a copy of all the images that you have of my vehicle. I understand that the Data Protection Act entitles me to all of this information."
to
Should you reject, please include all photos and CEO notes that you may rely on in further enforcement so I can consider the worth or otherwise of further appeals.

Delete "If you are unable to provide any of the requested documents please provide a reason."

Apart from that, fine.

They have no explicit duty to supply photos or CEO notes but if they refuse it can go in your favour at adjudication as not to do so is unfair in common law.
manur
i live in tower hamlets and can confirm that no matter if you are in c1, c2, c3 or c4 it is classed as c zone and can park in any of the above zones for however long you want. i've got a c4 permit and i park in c2 all day without any issues.
hcandersen
The permit conditions appear to be clear (numbers in brackets refer to the specific condition):

Valid only in the mini- zone stated (5);

If more than one permit is displayed, then they are 'rendered invalid'(11).

OP was not in the mini-zone stated on the permit and was displaying two permits at the time of the contravention. IMO, either would give rise to a legitimate reason to issue a PCN at the time given.

The conditions for these scratch-card permits are different from those for full resident permits, hence previous poster's situation.
DancingDad
QUOTE (manur @ Wed, 22 Oct 2014 - 01:27) *
i live in tower hamlets and can confirm that no matter if you are in c1, c2, c3 or c4 it is classed as c zone and can park in any of the above zones for however long you want. i've got a c4 permit and i park in c2 all day without any issues.


Interesting.
Not what the back of the permits say.
But nor is what Tower Hamlets have rejected for as yet. They simply say no permit.
If they do bring up wrong zone, Micks wrong code defence comes on board as does failing to consider and from what you say, legitimate expectation.
Mad Mick V
DD
Whether it is the wrong zone or not, the code issue is still valid grounds. They have used the wrong code because it is a shared bay not permit only.

Mick
DancingDad
QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 22 Oct 2014 - 08:52) *
DD
Whether it is the wrong zone or not, the code issue is still valid grounds. They have used the wrong code because it is a shared bay not permit only.

Mick

Agree totally but suggesting tactics to use it when strongest which IMO isn't now.

To date, TH have rejected on the simple assertion that no permit was on display so code 12 is correct and contravention stands.
While they stay with that, trying to persuade either them or an adjudicator that the wrong code was used simply comes down to was a permit displayed.
If they come back with an NOR that says "yes there was a permit but it was the wrong one" an appeal to adjudicator then includes Wrong Code and Failing to Consider (at informal stage)
Both strong arguments IMO with no uncertainty clouding the issue.
princess88
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 22 Oct 2014 - 00:11) *
Change "I would like to request a copy of all the images that you have of my vehicle. I understand that the Data Protection Act entitles me to all of this information."
to
Should you reject, please include all photos and CEO notes that you may rely on in further enforcement so I can consider the worth or otherwise of further appeals.

Delete "If you are unable to provide any of the requested documents please provide a reason."

Apart from that, fine.

They have no explicit duty to supply photos or CEO notes but if they refuse it can go in your favour at adjudication as not to do so is unfair in common law.



Thank you DD.
Do you recommend I post it out to them or email it?


Dear Sir/Madam

Re: VRN: .......
I am challenging your parking charge notice dated 16.09.2014 on the grounds that this contravention did not occur.

This PCN was issued under contravention code 12R 'Parked in a residents' or shared use parking place or zone without clearly displaying a permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place, or without payment of the parking charge (Residents Bay)'

The PCN was issued at 13:49 to 13:55, however a valid permit was clearly displayed which was scratched for 13:40 (see attached image). For that reason, I believe this PCN is invalid.

Should you reject, please include all photos and CEO notes that you may rely on in further enforcement so I can consider the worth or otherwise of further appeals.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours Sincerely,

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 22 Oct 2014 - 08:18) *
The permit conditions appear to be clear (numbers in brackets refer to the specific condition):

Valid only in the mini- zone stated (5);

If more than one permit is displayed, then they are 'rendered invalid'(11).

OP was not in the mini-zone stated on the permit and was displaying two permits at the time of the contravention. IMO, either would give rise to a legitimate reason to issue a PCN at the time given.

The conditions for these scratch-card permits are different from those for full resident permits, hence previous poster's situation.


I did not have 2 permits displayed at the same time.
The first one was displayed at 08:55 and then at 13:40 I removed it and placed another one.

QUOTE (manur @ Wed, 22 Oct 2014 - 01:27) *
i live in tower hamlets and can confirm that no matter if you are in c1, c2, c3 or c4 it is classed as c zone and can park in any of the above zones for however long you want. i've got a c4 permit and i park in c2 all day without any issues.


Manur does this apply to visitors scratch card as well?
I have been told this applies to Resident permit holders.

I did call up TH to confirm this few weeks back as many people are saying different things.
When I spoke to the lady she said that I cannot use C3 in C1 sad.gif
Then I questioned her about being unable to view images online and then she went on about how it isn't a legal requirement mad.gif
hcandersen
IMO, the conditions on the permit are clear, unambiguous, and not capable of alternative interpretation. I don't know how else to put it. You can only use the permit in the mini- zone printed on the permit.

Whether these are the legal conditions created by the traffic management order, who knows? The rules for holders of residents' permits are different.

The traffic sign clearly states Res permit holders only, which is consistent with the contravention given in the PCN and the code.

Can't see any obvious grounds for making reps, but the OP might as well. I would recommend that they do not fire a barrage of (IMO) groundless points at the authority if, as I believe, they'll be relying on the exercise of discretion.
princess88
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 22 Oct 2014 - 12:54) *
IMO, the conditions on the permit are clear, unambiguous, and not capable of alternative interpretation. I don't know how else to put it. You can only use the permit in the mini- zone printed on the permit.

Whether these are the legal conditions created by the traffic management order, who knows? The rules for holders of residents' permits are different.

The traffic sign clearly states Res permit holders only, which is consistent with the contravention given in the PCN and the code.

Can't see any obvious grounds for making reps, but the OP might as well. I would recommend that they do not fire a barrage of (IMO) groundless points at the authority if, as I believe, they'll be relying on the exercise of discretion.



So are you saying I have no leg to stand on... Shall I still send my appeal anyway and hope that they do not have any photographic evidence unsure.gif
I was hoping that the fine was issued because the warden assumed my ticket had expired not because of the zone. If it was because of the mini zone then why was the ticket not issued in the morning, but at 13:55 when it was due to expiry...



Incandescent
Send your appeal in and if they say the permit was wrong zone, you are bang-to-rights, but if it's something else there may be something there to get the PCN cancelled.
hcandersen
And they'll probably re-offer the discount if the reject them.

princess88
Okay thank you all for your help. I will send my appeal first thing tomorrow.

I will let you know when I receive a response.
princess88
Sorry I forgot to ask when I send my appeal which one do I indicate under 'representations'.

Representation Reason
A - The alleged Contravention did not occur
B I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time of contravention
- I have sold the vehicle before that date
- I had brought the vehicle after that date
- I have never owned that vehicle
C - The vehicle was taken without my consent
D - We are a hire firm and have supplied details
E - The Penalty Charge exceeds the relevant amount
F - There has been a procedural impropriety by the Enforcement Authority
G - The traffic order contravened is invalid
H - The Notice should not have been served because the Penalty Charge had already been paid
I - Other

Do I tick box A?

Thanks
princess88
Also I am sending only a copy of the permit that was on my dashboard at the time the warden issued me a ticket.
Do you suggest I send the first one too or will I make matters worse ....
manur
TBH I don't know if the same rules apply with scratchcards as I hold a full c4 permit sorry Princess 88
DancingDad
Better late then never but yes, box A
Hippocrates
No time. But, where is the PCN as it will be non-compliant? See: Richard L thread.

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