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Kentc81
Has anyone successfully appealed a ticket issued by edinburgh council?

My informal appeal has already been rejected? Is it possible to pay but still appeal ?

I'm looking to appeal formally , I parked in a residential parking permit space. I have a parking permit, zone 7 . Within this permit zone. There is one small street ( less than 100 metres long ) which has their own designated residential parking zone.

The sign in my opinion is not clear, it says residential parking parking only, in the corner it says place 480 , which doesnt mean a thing to me. The other signs are usually normally clear with a zone number highlighted

I went on to their website, which has a map of edinburgh, telling you which zone a street applies to. Their website says my parking permit is valid for that street ( I did mention this in my appeal already, there was no mention in reply I got )

This is the rejection I got :


Thank you for your enquiry received on 29 August 2014.

Unfortunately, having examined all the circumstances of the case we are unable to offer cancellation of the parking ticket.





The parking ticket was issued because your vehicle was parked in a designated mews area.

A mews area in its entirety is designated solely for the purpose of providing parking for holders of the appropriate mews resident permit. A street is designated as a mews (for parking purposes) to protect the limited amount of space available for parking. There are no road markings within a mews area, which is identified only by signs at the entrance.

The Council has authorisation from the Scottish Government to designate streets as mews areas and to indicate a mews area in this way.

We can advise that your Zone 7 permit is not valid in the mews area.

In the circumstances, it is considered that the Parking Attendant was acting correctly in issuing the parking ticket.

As you sent us your reasons within 14 days of receiving the parking ticket, you have the opportunity to pay at the 50% discounted rate of £30.00 within 14 days of the date of this letter. Please be aware that immediately after expiry of the 14 day period the charge will become £60.00.

You should now choose whether you want to pay the charge at the discount rate or continue to challenge this parking ticket. Payment will bring the case to a close. For details of how to pay or challenge this further, please read the enclosed Information Sheet.
DancingDad
If you pay you close the PCN and further appeals.
So you need to decide whether to challenge all the way or pay the discount.

Immediate thought on what's said is Signs! Whether or not they are clear and visible and what information they provide.

So post up the PCN, streetview link to signs/street and what you wrote to them in the informal appeal.
Kentc81
Click to view attachmentClick to view attachment


http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/20083/par...king_permit_map

I have attached , photo of their website, which shows according to their site, my permit is valid .

My PCN got wet, so hopefully you can still see most of it

I appealed saying, I dont know why I got the ticket, as my parking permit was on display, I sent them a copy of my permit. I genuinely thought my permit was valid for that street.

I sent a photo of the next street which shows the parking permit size,

All surrounding streets is permit zone 7
DancingDad
Okay, I'm confused.
PCN says Sciennes Hill Place.
Streetview takes me here
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.9374957,-...AmU0pag!2e0

At the bottom is a slightly obscured sign which seems similar to the one you show but without the blue door, so presumably a different sign.

So can you show us exactly where you were parked on streetview so we can compare to where the PCN says you was??

BTW, redact reg number and PCN no from the PCN.
Kentc81
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 4 Oct 2014 - 14:07) *
Okay, I'm confused.
PCN says Sciennes Hill Place.
Streetview takes me here
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.9374957,-...AmU0pag!2e0

At the bottom is a slightly obscured sign which seems similar to the one you show but without the blue door, so presumably a different sign.

So can you show us exactly where you were parked on streetview so we can compare to where the PCN says you was??

BTW, redact reg number and PCN no from the PCN.



https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.937375,-3...0A94N9g!2e0

I removed the PCN for time being
DancingDad
Hmmm
On the face of what we can see and council's reply, I'd suggest it all depends on how far you want to take this and whether or not risking the full amount is worth it.
Councils can set up zones within zones.
Councils can set up resident parking zones, what they call mews zones which are only signed at the entrance.
There are reasonably clear signs, two of them according to streetview, with identifier (480) which isn't Zone 7.
It is an assumption that they have a valid Traffic Order for that street and zone but really ought to be checked as there may be confusion on how they specify the zone in zone.

What they haven't done is consider any mitigation, ie your confusion and that it is a zone in a zone.
Or that the 480 ID is out of step with other resident permit signs close by which are identified by a numeral, such as 7, in a black box. So it isn't as apparent that you have entered a differing zone as say you had signs with an 8 in a black box or even the 480.

How far that takes you with Scottish adjudication (please check your PCN says Traffic Act 1991 on the top and not something else completely different) I'm not certain. In London I'd say no chance, rest of UK fair but we do not see enough decisions from Scottish decrim for me to be able to make any guesses.
Kentc81
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 4 Oct 2014 - 22:20) *
Hmmm
On the face of what we can see and council's reply, I'd suggest it all depends on how far you want to take this and whether or not risking the full amount is worth it.
Councils can set up zones within zones.
Councils can set up resident parking zones, what they call mews zones which are only signed at the entrance.
There are reasonably clear signs, two of them according to streetview, with identifier (480) which isn't Zone 7.
It is an assumption that they have a valid Traffic Order for that street and zone but really ought to be checked as there may be confusion on how they specify the zone in zone.

What they haven't done is consider any mitigation, ie your confusion and that it is a zone in a zone.
Or that the 480 ID is out of step with other resident permit signs close by which are identified by a numeral, such as 7, in a black box. So it isn't as apparent that you have entered a differing zone as say you had signs with an 8 in a black box or even the 480.

How far that takes you with Scottish adjudication (please check your PCN says Traffic Act 1991 on the top and not something else completely different) I'm not certain. In London I'd say no chance, rest of UK fair but we do not see enough decisions from Scottish decrim for me to be able to make any guesses.



Yeah the ticket does say Traffic act 1991

So does the fact that their website says zone 7 is valid on that street , not hold up on appeal ?
DancingDad
QUOTE (Kentc81 @ Sun, 5 Oct 2014 - 21:39) *
..........So does the fact that their website says zone 7 is valid on that street , not hold up on appeal ?


Only if you can show that was something you relied on and it created a reasonable expectation.
And even then it would rely on that the signs didn't give enough information to say different.

Whatever restriction exists is created by a traffic order.
No driver can be expected to know what is on the traffic order so instead of sending copies to every driver in the UK, councils have a duty to place signs to convey the restriction to the motorist.
Hence all the pretty yellow lines and signs we see.
The assumption is that Edinburg have an appropriate order though that is always worth checking.
A looksee around the area and at the entry to the specific street shows pole mounted signs, street by street and bay by bay.
So anywhere in zone 7 as a general statement is true but is given substance by appropriate signs.

The signs at the entrance to the mews create a little island in zone 7, one that takes it outside of the general statement.
No different to if you parked on a double yellow line and claimed it's in zone 7 so I can park on it.

As far as I see, the only argument is whether or not the pole signs (with 480) give enough information to the motorist who knows that they are in zone 7 to show that this is an area where the permit isn't acceptable.
in that respect, information such as the website and any information booklets may not make it clear that these can exist and you need to be aware.
But I'm not certain how much credibility an adjudicator would give to that.
Kentc81
How long does appeals usually take ? I appealed this. Its been about 6 months now
Incandescent
You'll have to check Scottish law on this as the Traffic Management Act doesn't apply, but I suspect they are now out of time to issue a Notice to Owner, so have stuffed themselves. Might be worth asking them what has happened. Certainly taking 6 months to respond to a challenge would be good grounds for an appeal to the Scottish adjudicator.

Kentc81
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 14 Apr 2015 - 22:28) *
You'll have to check Scottish law on this as the Traffic Management Act doesn't apply, but I suspect they are now out of time to issue a Notice to Owner, so have stuffed themselves. Might be worth asking them what has happened. Certainly taking 6 months to respond to a challenge would be good grounds for an appeal to the Scottish adjudicator.


Thanks for the reply ! Yeah might make an enquiry
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