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Alfista
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: -
Date of the NIP: -
Date you received the NIP: -
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): -
Was the NIP addressed to you? -
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? -
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? -
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons -

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - No
As you were not responsible for the vehicle, somebody else has named you as the driver. Were you driving? - Unsure
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • As you are not the person keeping the vehicle, the reasonable diligence test doesn't apply to you.
    Therefore, you are only required to provide such information as is in your power to give (e.g. the names and addresses of the possible drivers).

    You should reply within the 28 day period and explain the circumstances in a covering letter.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Fri, 01 Aug 2014 08:46:38 +0000
Alfista
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - April 2014
Date of the NIP: - 100 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 101 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - Wellington Street, J/w Wyndham Place Cardiff
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - At the time of the offence, test driving the vehicle with my son.
Subsequently, we purchased the car and he is now the registered keeper

How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Following inspection of the car at the dealer's (Trade Right Cars, Cardiff), I and my son took the car for a test drive.
During the course of the test drive we changed drives several times.
Due to the period between the offence and the NIP, I am unsure as to who was driving when or where, or at what time.


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - No
As you were not responsible for the vehicle, somebody else has named you as the driver. Were you driving? - Unsure
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • As you are not the person keeping the vehicle, the reasonable diligence test doesn't apply to you.
    Therefore, you are only required to provide such information as is in your power to give (e.g. the names and addresses of the possible drivers).

    You should reply within the 28 day period and explain the circumstances in a covering letter.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Fri, 01 Aug 2014 08:57:52 +0000
Jlc
What's the alleged speed and limit?
Alfista
35 in a 30 limit.
I am presuming it was a Gatso camera as Cardiff is littered with them, and I would have most likely spotted a mobile camera.
Jlc
Ok, it's not a particularly memorable speed. It does appear to be a Gatso here.

Photographs will be of the rear of the vehicle so are unlikely to assist in any driver identification.

The time of the offence will have been given - have you tried (together) to reconstruct the journey and figure out who was the most likely driver. Can you confirm who has received the NIP/s172? Is it you or your son? Anyway, either the driver is named (and it may be advantageous to do this asap if a course is preferable to points) or the failing to furnish driver details is defended at court. There is a statutory defence (that with reasonable diligence the information could not be supplied) but it is often very hard to convince the bench and the prize is 6 points and a large fine.
Alfista
Thanks for your replies,
I honestly can't remember who was driving, we would have driven along that road several times (the car dealer is just along the road by the junction with the A48M), with several changes as previously mentioned.
3+ months tends to blur ones recall.
I received the NIP, presumably because the RK at the time would have referred this back to the dealer, who only had my name as the purchaser.
Logician
You face a difficult choice, either you do your best to work out the most likely driver, who will be eligible for a course provided he has not done one in the past 3 years, or accept a FPN, or you attempt to defend the s.172 offence in court. You have a reasonable case, but courts can be rather unreasonable about this, since they know one of you was driving. As Jlc says, the penalty for failure is severe.
Jlc
Indeed. Your honesty is not in question but court would expect more from you than a shrug of the shoulders and honestly can't remember. You would have to show that you have taken reasonable diligence once being notified of the allegation. The 'delay' is in your favour but there's no guaranteed outcome and it would involve you attending court - a test drive should be quite memorable as it's not a day-to-day occurrence. It might be more pragmatic to discuss with your son who was the most likely driver and nominate then to see a course or at worse 3 points / £100. Deliberating naming the wrong driver is a different ballgame.
Alfista
Would you consider there is any mileage in sending a letter to the Officer in Charge of Safety Camera Unit, explaining the situation and asking for their 'guidance'?

peterguk
Asking for photos would at least show an effort is being made as opposed to "don't know, don't care".

QUOTE (Alfista @ Fri, 1 Aug 2014 - 11:43) *
Would you consider there is any mileage in sending a letter to the Officer in Charge of Safety Camera Unit, explaining the situation and asking for their 'guidance'?


I doubt you'll receive a useful reply since the police are not there to offer legal advice.
Alfista
I doubt you'll receive a useful reply since the police are not there to offer legal advice.
[/quote]

I agree with you, I will most likely initially request photos with covering letter, to at least get the ball rolling, rather than wait.

Jlc
QUOTE (Alfista @ Fri, 1 Aug 2014 - 11:43) *
Would you consider there is any mileage in sending a letter to the Officer in Charge of Safety Camera Unit, explaining the situation and asking for their 'guidance'?

They will only tell you of the requirement to nominate or the matter is likely to be heard at court.

As Peter says asking for photo's could be considered helpful in showing reasonable diligence but a rear shot of the vehicle doesn't give you an 'out' as it doesn't 'prove' who was driving. The photo's are only to identify the offence and the vehicle - the driver identity is covered by the s172 process. (Self incriminating that it is but that's another story)
AFCNEAL
It's gonna be a tall order to convince anyone who's ever bought a car that the drivers rotates several times on what would have been a very short journey. Someone drove out of the dealer (that should be easy to remember) and someone drove back in (ditto)............

You are facing turning a simple SAc attendance at a cost of c£90 into a £500+ fine and 6 points.......
Alfista
QUOTE (AFCNEAL @ Fri, 1 Aug 2014 - 11:57) *
It's gonna be a tall order to convince anyone who's ever bought a car that the drivers rotates several times on what would have been a very short journey. Someone drove out of the dealer (that should be easy to remember) and someone drove back in (ditto)............

You are facing turning a simple SAc attendance at a cost of c£90 into a £500+ fine and 6 points.......


Therein lies the rub! to defend an honest situation is far more damaging than simply rolling over and giving up!
Jlc
QUOTE (Alfista @ Fri, 1 Aug 2014 - 12:02) *
Therein lies the rub! to defend an honest situation is far more damaging than simply rolling over and giving up!

We don't necessarily agree with the process but we can only tell you as it is and the potential risks. There's a chance they'll agree that you meet the statutory defence and you are not guilty. Your credibility in court would go a long way but don't think it's an easy task as everyone would be doing it.
Alfista
Thanks for all your replies gents, much appreciated.

A
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