Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Box Junction
FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
888508
I have just received a PCN 31 J - entering and stopping in a box junction. on 10 July 2014. I do not recall stopping in a box junction at anytime. This letter/PCN was sent to me by post and states that the alleged contravention was seen and recorded by a camera operator who was observing real time pictures from a camera at the time stated. They say the video footage can be seen on their website. I have looked at the footage and notice that I did not stop in the box junction, I entered the box junction as I was turning, there was no traffic so there would have been no reason for me to stop in the yellow box. I have 14 days from the date of the notice to appeal. The notice was dated 22 July 2014.

Can anyone advice me please on what to do.

Thanks
Hippocrates
Post up the scrubbed PCN and ask a mod to place in the decriminalised section.
Chaseman
Are you able also to post a link to the footage? If you did not stop then the PCN must be cancelled. The offence is "entering and [then] stopping in a YBJ" so if you didn't stop there is no offence. Is this a LA or TfL?
DancingDad
If you can't post the video, describe it in more detail pls.

The prohibition is actually causing a vehicle to enter a box junction and stopping due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

So stopping for any reason except stationary vehicles is not a contavention
Chaseman
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 24 Jul 2014 - 11:50) *
If you can't post the video, describe it in more detail pls.

The prohibition is actually causing a vehicle to enter a box junction and stopping due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

So stopping for any reason except stationary vehicles is not a contavention


I agree with your interpretation DD, but if the vehicle did not stop at all, there is no need to enquire into what reason or obstruction might have caused it to stop. IMHO, if the vehicle didn't stop at all, then what on earth is the LA or TfL playing at? We need either to see the CCTV or if OP cannot post it, then as you say, describe it in more detail. Was there some momentary hesitation that might have led to the issue of the PCN? As has been established before, pauses of up to 6 seconds are generally considered de minimis at PATAS.
DancingDad
Yup
But while EAs are in the habit of bunging out a PCN when a vehicle stops, for whatever reason, generally there is a stop.
So either OP or EA is wrong (pls don't take offence)
Once we know which one it will guide any challenge

Reading OP's opening, I suspect there was a stop as they were turning but we need to know, not guess or infer.

Also need the PCN, there may be other issues.
888508
I will post the PCN later today. The photographs can only be viewed from the video footage on the councils website. This is a Local Authority issued PCN. If I want to view the actual video footage the PCN requires me to make to make an appointment to view it at the civic centre.

The still photos I saw on the council's website showed me turning but no evidence of stopping, there was space between me and the vehicle ahead of me so there would be no reason for me to stop in the box junction.

I will try to see if I can copy and paste/upload the still photographs.

Thank you
Chaseman
QUOTE (888508 @ Thu, 24 Jul 2014 - 23:36) *
I will post the PCN later today. The photographs can only be viewed from the video footage on the councils website. This is a Local Authority issued PCN. If I want to view the actual video footage the PCN requires me to make to make an appointment to view it at the civic centre.

The still photos I saw on the council's website showed me turning but no evidence of stopping, there was space between me and the vehicle ahead of me so there would be no reason for me to stop in the box junction.

I will try to see if I can copy and paste/upload the still photographs.

Thank you


Still photos will not tell you for certain whether the car stopped. Check the times imprinted on the stills by all means but you really need to view the CCTV to be sure.
888508
Click to view attachmentClick to view attachmentHere are the pictures and the timings which I have taken from the images on the website.

I will upload the PCN shortly.

What do you think so far, do I have grounds to appeal?
Chaseman
There's a 7 second gap between pictures 1 and 3 where it APPEARS the car didn't move. This is borderline de minimis. Make the appointment to see the CCTV and check timings thereon to be sure.
888508
Ok I will. But what is the effect of the deminimus level and should the council not apply it before issuing PCNs or is it discretionary?

Also when I view the video am I looking for a time when the car does not move at all i.e. stationary? If it is moving slowly does that count? Please advice.

888508
Not enough space to upload the pcn so will have to type it in!
John U.K.
QUOTE (888508 @ Fri, 25 Jul 2014 - 19:02) *
Not enough space to upload the pcn so will have to type it in!



Scan or photo front and back of the PCN then edit (omit PCN and reg nos, leave in date, times, location, contravention details and code) and upload using instructions here.
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=36858
I have used pixlr to edit and tinypic to upload.Works well
888508
Here is the PCN:

The Council believe that a penalty charge is payable with respect to the above vehicle on the grounds of the following alleged contravention of a prescribed order or failure to comply with an indication given by a traffic sign.

31J Entering and Stopping in a boc junction when prohibited
Location: MTC-London Road/Armfield crescent (box junction) Time 16.41.

The alleged contravention was seen and recorded by camera operator 092 who was observing real time pictures from a camera at the time stated and has been recorded on digital storage media. To view still photographs taken from the video footage pleas visit www.merton.gov.uk/pcn. You will need the PCN number printed above and your vehicle registartion. To make an appointment to view the video footage at the civic centre please call 0208 545 4661.
The amount of the penalty charge which is payable is £130. the penalty charge must be paid before end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of this notice. A reduced charge of £65 is payable if the penalty charge is paid before the end of 14 days beginining with the date of this notice the amount of the penalty charge will be reduced by 50% to £65

If the penalty charge is not paid before the 28 day period an increased charge of £195 may be payable.

It then goes on to talk about how to make representations.

Can I pursue this case? Please advice.
DancingDad
Photograph
Host on free image hosting site
Link back to here
Chaseman
QUOTE (888508 @ Fri, 25 Jul 2014 - 18:46) *
Ok I will. But what is the effect of the deminimus level and should the council not apply it before issuing PCNs or is it discretionary?

Also when I view the video am I looking for a time when the car does not move at all i.e. stationary? If it is moving slowly does that count? Please advice.


6 seconds is the maximum period of time that a car can be stationary inside a YBJ without attracting a penalty as per previous PATAS decisions. It is not a statutory de minimis as far as I am aware. You might get lucky with a particular adjudicator who would allow slightly longer. The reason that the council pays no attention to de minimis exemptions is that they are venal and out to get whatever money they can. If they fine 10 people for a de minimis offence and one takes it to PATAS and gets off then they are winning the game. The offence is "entering and stopping in a YBJ" so yes, the car must stop to commit an "offence". If you move very slowly then the offence is not committed. Take careful note of the period where the car's wheels are not moving and in particular if it stops, starts and stops again - that is not a continuous period of stopping.
888508
Thanks for your comments, very helpful.


So I viewed the video footage today via a laptop at the council's premises. It does look there was no movement for the 7 seconds, it showed me driving into the box but I could not see or notice any imperceptible movement , despite watching it 4 times, the video clip moved very quickly. This road which I entered via the box junction splits into two ahead and although not very clear on the video what I did notice was that the car two heads up from me fhad its left indicator on and it may be that its trying to switch lanes had the effect of slowing me down. I reasonably expected to clear the junction when I entered it as the traffic was free flowing.

Is it worth contesting? Happy to go along with advice given based on the above.

Many Thanks
888508
Emm anyone out there?
Hippocrates
QUOTE (Chaseman @ Mon, 28 Jul 2014 - 12:18) *
QUOTE (888508 @ Fri, 25 Jul 2014 - 18:46) *
Ok I will. But what is the effect of the deminimus level and should the council not apply it before issuing PCNs or is it discretionary?

Also when I view the video am I looking for a time when the car does not move at all i.e. stationary? If it is moving slowly does that count? Please advice.


6 seconds is the maximum period of time that a car can be stationary inside a YBJ without attracting a penalty as per previous PATAS decisions. It is not a statutory de minimis as far as I am aware. You might get lucky with a particular adjudicator who would allow slightly longer. The reason that the council pays no attention to de minimis exemptions is that they are venal and out to get whatever money they can. If they fine 10 people for a de minimis offence and one takes it to PATAS and gets off then they are winning the game. The offence is "entering and stopping in a YBJ" so yes, the car must stop to commit an "offence". If you move very slowly then the offence is not committed. Take careful note of the period where the car's wheels are not moving and in particular if it stops, starts and stops again - that is not a continuous period of stopping.

de minimis decisions depend entirely upon which adjudicator you get. End of. Some will not even consider it. Nathan will allow 4. Lawrence will allow 6/7 seconds. Chan will not. Brennan will not allow any second.

Your best bet is to raise it and hope they fail to deal with it - then you have a ground.

We need to see the PCN. Who is the authority?

This matter is not an offence rather an alleged contravention to do with civil enforcement.
888508
Thank you everybody. I decided to pay the fine I am afraid, too much uncertainty. When I viewed the footage the wheels were not moving as far as I could tell, it was so quick and I viewed the clip over and over again.
I made an initial appeal on the deminimis basis and was rejected so it was down to taking a risk and going to PATAS, I decided not to as I am risk averse anyway but even more so with the odds stacked against me..

The council involved was Merton, I did post the pics but took them down after I decided to pay. I might have tried if I had received more encouragement.

Thanks again everyone.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2024 Invision Power Services, Inc.