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FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
JMA
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - June 2014
Date of the NIP: - 1 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 8 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A65 Kirkby Lonsdale
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - NIP states 48 in a 40.
I am unsure who was driving as my car was driven by several people in the area during that week, including mechanics.
I am very familiar with the (local) road and the camera position and am always careful to stay under 40.
Also I had turned right onto that road about 50m earlier from being stationary at a junction and would have to have been really trying to get to 48 by that point.

I don't know when the NIP arrived as I have been away.


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Unsure
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Unsure
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 10:22:55 +0000
peterguk
Request photos "to assist in identifying the driver".

Then get your diaries out and work out who was driving, else 6 points and hefty fine will be the result.
JMA
I know several people did drive the car that day, all local, so we are unable to be sure who it was at that exact time.
Can I do anything about checking the camera, as 48 at that point on the route is extremely unlikely.

Jlc
The recorded speed is academic if the driver cannot be nominated...

QUOTE (JMA @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 11:22) *
Also I had turned right onto that road about 50m earlier from being stationary at a junction and would have to have been really trying to get to 48 by that point.

This implies you were driving?
peterguk
QUOTE (JMA @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 11:48) *
I know several people did drive the car that day, all local, so we are unable to be sure who it was at that exact time.


Have you spoken to them all? I'm sure once you tell them they'll all be involved if they don't assist, they'll soon come up with times when they were in your car.

This issue won't go away so get on the phone after you've written and requested photos as above.

QUOTE (JMA @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 11:48) *
Can I do anything about checking the camera, as 48 at that point on the route is extremely unlikely.


You can elect to go to court. The law assumes the camera is working correctly, so how are you going to prove it was not working correctly on that occassion?

In any case, if it wasn't you driving, how do you know what speed the driver was doing when passing the camera?
Spenny
You say you are always careful not to trigger the camera, and assuming that it is a fixed camera, then it is blindingly obvious when it has flashed, so what you are saying is that at the moment none of your employees is admitting to having been flashed.

Forget about the camera being massively out of spec, if it was the secondary checks would soon confirm the speed, and you haven't said anything here to make me believe that someone else wasn't speeding - you have no knowledge of the route they were taking either.

Also, it is quite possible that there was a second temporary speed camera set up nearby, so basically if you kept your speed down for the fixed camera and then accelerated away afterwards, it is possible that an alternative speed trap was set up. Did you stick to the limit all along the A65?

Ask for pictures to confirm the identity of the driver (not anything else as this could otherwise be misinterpreted). This will also allow you to properly identify the location as well as potentially the driver.

You need to emphasise to the mechanics that if they were flashed the chances are that they'll get a speed awareness course or 3 points, but if you mess about with identification you'll be getting not only a hefty fine and 6 points but also a big insurance hike too and that will not go down well.

You are under an obligation to make every reasonable effort to identify the driver. That means sitting down with everyone else, looking at what work was being done, what errands were run and also emphasising that you are getting the photographs.

Also, you should not identify yourself if you genuinely don't know, that is potentially a crime of perverting the course of justice.
AFCNEAL
We should also add that 'several people driving THAT WEEK' is neither here nor there - you'll have a day and time, most mechanics would be in the shop working ordinarily?...............

gedblanker
QUOTE (JMA @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 11:22) *
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - June 2014
Date of the NIP: - 1 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 8 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A65 Kirkby Lonsdale
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - NIP states 48 in a 40.
I am unsure who was driving as my car was driven by several people in the area during that week, including mechanics.
I am very familiar with the (local) road and the camera position and am always careful to stay under 40.
Also I had turned right onto that road about 50m earlier from being stationary at a junction and would have to have been really trying to get to 48 by that point.

I don't know when the NIP arrived as I have been away.


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Unsure
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Unsure
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 10:22:55 +0000

If I can work out you were driving from what you have written why can't you?
Pancras
As they have given you a specific date and time, it doesn't really matter who was driving that week. Check work records, CCTV, clock-in/out cards, diaries, view the photographs etc.

If you are not able to name a specific driver, then you should name all of the drivers whom it might reasonably have been.

Failure to furnish details will see the registered keeper being given 6 points and a fine in the region of £600 upon conviction.
JMA
I can only describe my own driving behaviour. Everyone would have taken the same route, which turns right onto the A65 for about 150m (through the fixed camera which has been there for years) and then turns off left again. Not really any point or opportunity for speeding.

The mechanics are not my employees! My car was in the garage for some work and various people, including me, took it out during the day for testing. I honestly can't remember the times and its not the sort of place where they clock in and out!

I am up against the time limit so is it worth trying to get photos? Or should I write a covering letter listing all possible drivers and also request photos? Would this count as a timely response?

Is a SAC likely for 48 in a 40? I have never had any points or attended any course before.


AFCNEAL
I think you need to be more positive about this. At the given time and date you would know where you were - at work/home/garage. So that either identifies you or rules you out - simple. If you passed the car to another for work then name the manager/proprietor and it then becomes his/her legal responsibility to name who was driving and you're in the clear.

48 in a 40 is SAC territory.

If the camera is a Gatso, photos won't help. Look after No.1 first.........
timbstoke
QUOTE (JMA @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 14:02) *
The mechanics are not my employees! My car was in the garage for some work and various people, including me, took it out during the day for testing. I honestly can't remember the times and its not the sort of place where they clock in and out!


This sounds very strange. If the car was in to have work carried out, why were you driving it? If you had just dropped it off in the morning and picked it up when the work was complete, this would be so much easier, since you'd just reply nominating the garage, as they were the keeper at the time of the offence. However, since you remain a potential driver, you'll have to bang your heads together with all the possible drivers to figure out who it was.
Logician
Listing all possible drivers will almost certainly see you served with a summons for the s.172 offence which carries 6 points and a large fine. Asking for photos does not stop the clock running on the 28 days you have to respond. The only criteria for being offered a course are the speed and not having done one in the last three years, the maximum peed for a 40 limit is 53, so the driver is OK on that and as you have never done one, if it was you, then you fulfil both criteria. Do not be tempted to write back something equivocal such as "I will accept responsibility" you need either to say you were driving or name someone else. It is very difficult to convince a court that you genuinely cannot name a driver, to the extent that in your circumstances it is not even worth considering; you would in all probability be convicted and on top of the fine and points have to pay costs for which the guideline is £620.
Spenny
QUOTE (timbstoke @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 14:29) *
QUOTE (JMA @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 14:02) *
The mechanics are not my employees! My car was in the garage for some work and various people, including me, took it out during the day for testing. I honestly can't remember the times and its not the sort of place where they clock in and out!


This sounds very strange. If the car was in to have work carried out, why were you driving it? If you had just dropped it off in the morning and picked it up when the work was complete, this would be so much easier, since you'd just reply nominating the garage, as they were the keeper at the time of the offence. However, since you remain a potential driver, you'll have to bang your heads together with all the possible drivers to figure out who it was.

I think the trouble is that the OP is not being entirely clear as to what went on.

If he is certain it wasn't him, then it was one of the garage employees. It seems strange to me that he can be certain it was not them too.

His options are:

a) take the hit, but stating clearly it was him, no weasel words.
b) blame the garage and leave it up to them to sort out which employee did it.
c) Fight it in court and lose as aside from speculation he has no evidence the camera was malfunctioning - he doesn't even know if he was driving to say the car's speed was measured incorrectly.
d) Ask once more who got flashed and see if someone fesses up.
AFCNEAL
As above, I too fear this is going to end (needlessly) badly.

OP - in case anyone 'down the pub' is advising you, there's a litany of cases on here showing that 'don't know' only ends badly - that loophole closed many years ago, alongside unsigned (England) and the +1p cheques etc etc.

You story will raise suspicions as in 40 years of driving I've never taken a car to a garage and then test driven it myself (I'd go to another garage pronto). So rule yourself in or out and act accordingly?...........
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