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ant1298
Good morning all,

New member here, so bear with me!

I'm writing on behalf of my Fiancee (Karen) and her vehicle problems.

She purchased a CBR600 on 27/04/2014 (the V5 was signed on the 27th) and immediately stored the bike for later use. The tax for the bike expired on the 30/04/2014.

Karen rang up the DVLA to enquire about making the bike SORN and was advised that because a change of keeper was about to occur that the best bet was to wait until the V5 was in her new name, as any SORN in the previous keepers name would become invalid upon change of details.

Several weeks passed (as you would expect) and the V5 had still not arrived. She rang the DVLA back up only to be told they had not received the document from the previous keeper. By this time the vehicle was untaxed (and uninsured), yet it was stored in a garage. The vehicle was still on the DVLA's system as belonging to the previous keeper. The DVLA told her not to worry about any fines and to wait 6 weeks before starting proceedings to get a new V5.

Karen started to fill in the DVLA V62 as she could not get hold of the previous owner and as stated on the form (section E) she should wait 6 weeks before contacting the DVLA. It was by now around 6 weeks after the purchase. Luckily Karen then managed to get hold of the previous owner to find out he had not even posted the V5 off, something about a holiday and miscommunication between him and his wife. He sent the document off straight away.

Karen received the V5 on the 27/06/14 (2 months after signing the V5) and with it an LLP. The LLP is dated 24/06, so my guess is that's when they were sent, including the V5.

Now that seems a little unfair as she was not responsible for taxing the vehicle according to the DVLA until she became the registered keeper, meaning the fine should fall on the previous keeper. However in its infinite wisdom the DVLA has taken the V5 signing date as the change over date, which in most cases probably isn't 2 months after buying the vehicle.

As far as I can see Karen has followed all the advice the DVLA has offered and has proactively tried to sort this issue out, yet in the eyes of the DVLA it doesn't matter.

I have enclosed the letters and responses for you to view. My question is what to do next, given the previous owners failure to inform the DVLA and the DVLAs over zealous approach to LLPs?

Thanks

Original letter from DVLA:

Click to view attachment

Response:

Click to view attachment

Response 1 from DVLA:

Click to view attachment

Final dispute letter:

Click to view attachment
AFCNEAL
She may have fallen into the trap of telephone use as opposed to e-mail/letter.............but if she has a record of dates/times and who she spoke to, write to DVLA and tell them she's done exactly what she was told to do?
ant1298
QUOTE (AFCNEAL @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 10:22) *
She may have fallen into the trap of telephone use as opposed to e-mail/letter.............but if she has a record of dates/times and who she spoke to, write to DVLA and tell them she's done exactly what she was told to do?


That's the problem really, because she didn't suspect that the events could have led to the current circumstances she didn't record dates or times (or names) of the calls.

Perhaps it was silly of her (us?) not to start proceedings of filling for a new V5, but given the verbal advice and the documents (V62) saying wait 6 weeks before contacting she believed it would all be ok.

I guess this could have all been solved with the previous keeper actually doing what he was supposed to and sending of the V5, such is life!

What sort of grounds does she have for the previous owner failing to update the registered keepers details in a timely manner, causing unnecessary penalties to be incurred by the new keeper? I'm only talking about getting let off the hook by the c**k up from the previous keeper.

Surely the DVLA know the exact time of change over on their system, corroborating the fact the V5 was late?

Thanks

peterguk
QUOTE (ant1298 @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 10:36) *
What sort of grounds does she have for the previous owner failing to update the registered keepers details in a timely manner, causing unnecessary penalties to be incurred by the new keeper?


In terms of action against the previous keeper, none that i know of.
Logician
Why did she leave the previous keeper to send off the V5C? If she and the previous keeper had both signed it and she had sent it off, the problem would not have arisen. M<y ex has just got into similar problems by failing to follow the proper procedure and leaving it up to a motor trader to send off the section 9 of the V5C, which he failed to do.
ant1298
QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 10:38) *
QUOTE (ant1298 @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 10:36) *
What sort of grounds does she have for the previous owner failing to update the registered keepers details in a timely manner, causing unnecessary penalties to be incurred by the new keeper?


In terms of action against the previous keeper, none that i know of.


I'm specifically talking about changing the penalty over to him rather then Karen, seeing as he was the registered keeper until the DVLA saw the change over date, which was only signed with that date because Karen believed that the V5 was to be sent off in good time.

I know it's straw clutching but until the DVLA saw the V5 he was still the registered keeper and therefore still responsible for the licensing of the vehicle. The vehicle was sold on the 27th April, but the transfer of keeper happened roughly 6-7 weeks afterwards.

Do you think there is any ground to gain here?

Thanks
AFCNEAL
QUOTE (ant1298 @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 10:51) *
Do you think there is any ground to gain here?

Thanks


None - it's not a transferrable liability. Presumably she has/had the new keeper supplement anyway? With not traceable record I fear this won't end well. It'll cost a stamp to write and detail out what she was told (conveninetly leaving out any reference to dates etc) and suggest they rethink? Slim chance but 50p cost to find out?

Why do people phone for such important stuff in an age where e-mails etc are everywhere??!! I think the dVLA line is premium rate as well!!
ant1298
QUOTE (AFCNEAL @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 10:56) *
QUOTE (ant1298 @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 10:51) *
Do you think there is any ground to gain here?

Thanks


None - it's not a transferrable liability. Presumably she has/had the new keeper supplement anyway? With not traceable record I fear this won't end well. It'll cost a stamp to write and detail out what she was told (conveninetly leaving out any reference to dates etc) and suggest they rethink? Slim chance but 50p cost to find out?

Why do people phone for such important stuff in an age where e-mails etc are everywhere??!! I think the dVLA line is premium rate as well!!


There are places online to change premium numbers to local rate numbers, it's also an instant response.

I was going to send the final appeal, but wanted to see if I could add anything into the letter that would strengthen it, such as what points to spend time clarifying to them.

She had the new keeper supplement instantly and after the 27th June she got the complete V5.

She will pay the reduced fine if they fail to respond in time, but obviously she would rather avoid that. The next port of call is the previous owner, not sure how to tackle that one, perhaps a polite phone call?

Thanks
peterguk
QUOTE (ant1298 @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 11:06) *
The next port of call is the previous owner, not sure how to tackle that one, perhaps a polite phone call?


To achieve what? He repeats what he told you before: "Karen then managed to get hold of the previous owner to find out he had not even posted the V5 off, something about a holiday and miscommunication between him and his wife"

He has no liability in terms of your penalty, so expect a short call.
The Rookie
QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 10:48) *
Why did she leave the previous keeper to send off the V5C? If she and the previous keeper had both signed it and she had sent it off, the problem would not have arisen. M<y ex has just got into similar problems by failing to follow the proper procedure and leaving it up to a motor trader to send off the section 9 of the V5C, which he failed to do.

Because the law requires the previous keeper to notify the DVLA (well strictly the SoS), so if I was the previous keeper I wouldn't be giving the V5C to a buyer so I could then be hit with a penalty for not sending it off.....obvious really!
ant1298
QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 11:10) *
QUOTE (ant1298 @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 11:06) *
The next port of call is the previous owner, not sure how to tackle that one, perhaps a polite phone call?


To achieve what? He repeats what he told you before: "Karen then managed to get hold of the previous owner to find out he had not even posted the V5 off, something about a holiday and miscommunication between him and his wife"

He has no liability in terms of your penalty, so expect a short call.


Perhaps it will be a short call, but it was his delay that caused the issue in the first place. He failed to update the details on the DVLA database.

My point it probably mute in the fact that life is never simple or fair.

So apart from a second appeal it seems options are limited. Annoying because it's only through following DVLA advice this has occurred.

Thanks
sgtdixie
I have sold a couple of vehicles in the last year. I got an email address for the buyer and emailed them with a scan of the signed up V5c as soon as it was posted so they knew it had gone. 3 to 4 weeks later DVLA records updated with no fuss.
ant1298
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 11:18) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 10:48) *
Why did she leave the previous keeper to send off the V5C? If she and the previous keeper had both signed it and she had sent it off, the problem would not have arisen. M<y ex has just got into similar problems by failing to follow the proper procedure and leaving it up to a motor trader to send off the section 9 of the V5C, which he failed to do.

Because the law requires the previous keeper to notify the DVLA (well strictly the SoS), so if I was the previous keeper I wouldn't be giving the V5C to a buyer so I could then be hit with a penalty for not sending it off.....obvious really!


I guess she could have escorted him to a post box, but he was (or seemed) a reasonable guy with a family. We went in for a cuppa and chatted. He said he'd send it off that day as he was going out with his kids and would past a post box on his way out. Nothing seemed untoward so we trusted him.

He was apologetic when he realised his mistake but that doesn't really cut it now the LLP has surfaced.

Thanks

QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 11:21) *
I have sold a couple of vehicles in the last year. I got an email address for the buyer and emailed them with a scan of the signed up V5c as soon as it was posted so they knew it had gone. 3 to 4 weeks later DVLA records updated with no fuss.



I've sold vehicles before and bought them, and no issues.
It's only a result of the delay and the fact Karen wanted it SORN, not taxed that this is even an issue.

Thanks
The Rookie
I would say that the fact the V62 says to wait 6 weeks is pretty persuasive, you can't SORN without the V5C and the DVLA themselves tell you to wait 6 weeks to get it.
ant1298
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 11:32) *
I would say that the fact the V62 says to wait 6 weeks is pretty persuasive, you can't SORN without the V5C and the DVLA themselves tell you to wait 6 weeks to get it.


The fact that it corroborates the advisor means it's not a random figure the advisor said. I'm guessing that the LLP is simply a stab in the dark for cash based on a automated computer system?

The response from the first appeal seemed automated!

How do you think I should lay the appeal out?

-Advised to wait to SORN as V5 not in new keeper name
-Waited stated time and started filling in new V5 form
-Tried to contact owner and was successful, previously wasn't
-He sent off V5
-V5 received with LLP
-Immediate SORN made as originally wanted

Thanks for the help!
The Rookie
Pretty much that, yes, that you couldn't make a SORN without the V5C and that there own paperwork told you to wait 6 weeks which was corroborated on the phone (you don't need dates names and times as it corroborates their own publication anyway).
ant1298
Please see if this is an acceptable appeal letter, I fear it is not so would like other opinions!

Dear Sir/ Madam,

I am writing to further appeal a penalty for failing to tax a vehicle. The vehicle details are as follows:

Registration: XXXX XXX
Make and Model: HONDA CBR600F

I wish to provide the following mitigating information in relation to this alleged offence:

I purchased the vehicle on April 27th 2014 with 5 days road tax left (31/04/14); I was aware of this and decided that due to financial constraints I would declare the vehicle SORN. Because I was not currently the recorded keeper (according to the DVLA) I was unable to make a SORN over the phone, you will have a record of the call as it was clearly stated all calls were recorded and monitored (XXXXXXXXXXX). I was advised by a DVLA employee to wait 4-6 weeks for the V5C to turn up before making a SORN declaration.

At the 5-week mark the V5C had still not turned up and so I contacted the DVLA to inform them of this, they advised me to wait until 6 weeks before completing a V62. Section E of the V62 states to wait 6 weeks.

Shortly before sending off the V62 the previous owner contacted me to apologise for the delay in sending off the V5C; he was going to send it off the next day. Up until the point the DVLA received the V5C he was still the registered keeper on the DVLA system. I did not send the V62 off because the previous keeper was posting the V5C.

I finally received the V5C on the 27th June 2014 (2 months after purchasing) along with an LLP.

I do not believe I should have to pay the penalty, as I was not the registered keeper on the system over the period that the vehicle was untaxed. As soon as I received the V5C the vehicle was declared SORN, you’ll be able to see this on your system. You will also be able to corroborate this by looking at the date at which your system was updated, not the date signed on the form. It will show that the previous keeper did not notify the DVLA in a timely manner, leading to the following events unfolding. Had the V5C been sent off straight away then I would not need to write this letter.


To conclude, I have never had an issue with licensing a vehicle before and therefore was unsure on the best course of action to take. I felt that advice given to me by the DVLA call centre employees was the right course of action.

I look forward to hearing from you shortly in regards to this matter.


Thanks
AFCNEAL
Almost! (In my opinion). Let others with more practical knowledge comment, but I would reword:

I do not believe I should have to pay the penalty, as I was not the registered keeper on the system over the period that the vehicle was untaxed. As soon as I received the V5C the vehicle was declared SORN, you’ll be able to see this on your system. You will also be able to corroborate this by looking at the date at which your system was updated, not the date signed on the form. It will show that the previous keeper did not notify the DVLA in a timely manner, leading to the following events unfolding. Had the V5C been sent off straight away then I would not need to write this letter.

To conclude, I have never had an issue with licensing a vehicle before and therefore was unsure on the best course of action to take. I felt that advice given to me by the DVLA call centre employees was the right course of action.


With

I contest that a penalty is due by myself, having followed the advice given by DVLA advisors in good faith throughout. Please revisit your records to establish my contacts and what was advised and furthermore check the same for the timings in relation to the previous keeper's advice of a change.
ant1298
So I have the letter ready to send today, here it is:

Click to view attachment

I will keep this thread informed.

Thanks
The Rookie
I wouldn't use the word mitigate, it is defence you are after.
ant1298
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 23 Jul 2014 - 11:22) *
I wouldn't use the word mitigate, it is defence you are after.


Oops too late. Lets hope they don't read too much into that phrasing then!

Thanks
ant1298
I'd also like to add that if you pay close attention to the wording in the DVLAs response 1 you will see in the second to last para that they claim the phone number shown is a payments line only, yet in the last para they say you can ring the same number to request a V991. The number is highly misleading (it goes in circles) and there is no way of getting the V991 apart from a letter. I contacted the customer enquiry line and they do not have access to the forms and have no idea on how to get them :/

Good job DVLA!
ant1298
So just an update, we paid the fine on 01/08/14 as this was the last full day that the half price penalty was on offer for. We hadn't heard back from the DVLA so we played it safe.

Turns out the DVLA do not issue receipts for penalty payment, Karen did ask (although I don't think she insisted enough) and they said they didn't do them....

Now just waiting for the DVLA response to our appeal letter.

Thanks.
Glacier2
I has a feeling that because you paid, you have admitted guilt and any appeal will not be considered.
ant1298
DVLA responded, I believe the letter was sent before payment, stating a rejection.

End of matter, shame, you win some you loose some.

Cheers for all your help!

Thanks.
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