Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Innacurate NIP.
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
dogsbody1947
Hi,I have received a NIP in respect of an allegation of Careless Driving.
The NIP arrived within the 14 day time limit. The date of the alleged offense is incorrect. In fact the date is one month in the future.
Any advice on when to submit the ' Application for Name and Address of Driver' given the inaccurate NIP.

Many thanks.
sgtdixie
Do you know what the NIP actually refers to?
peterguk
Wait til 14 days is up and then return form telling them you have no idea who will be driving the car on the date mentioned?
Logician
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 13:52) *
Wait til 14 days is up and then return form telling them you have no idea who will be driving the car on the date mentioned?


+1, but note that if the alleged careless driving involved an accident, the lack of a valid timely NIP will not assist you.

Gan
Agree about waiting

Not the OP's job to second guess what date they meant or alert them to the error in time to correct it
uk_mike
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 13:52) *
Wait til 14 days is up and then return form telling them you have no idea who will be driving the car on the date mentioned?


It is better to respond (after the 14 days has expired) informing them where the vehicle was at the time on the NIP, and then to go on an tell them that the vehicle was in the location in question on the actual date. This should prompt them to check their records and hopefully drop the matter as out of time.

The risk with Peters response is that they view it as a simple refusal to respond and pass it to the COS for summons without checking the dates. It should be possible to defend/get the COS to drop one the error is revealed, but only after a lot of hassle that is best avoided is possible.

peterguk
QUOTE (uk_mike @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 20:52) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 13:52) *
Wait til 14 days is up and then return form telling them you have no idea who will be driving the car on the date mentioned?


It is better to respond (after the 14 days has expired) informing them where the vehicle was at the time on the NIP, and then to go on an tell them that the vehicle was in the location in question on the actual date. This should prompt them to check their records and hopefully drop the matter as out of time.

The risk with Peters response is that they view it as a simple refusal to respond and pass it to the COS for summons without checking the dates. It should be possible to defend/get the COS to drop one the error is revealed, but only after a lot of hassle that is best avoided is possible.




The only date on the NIP is one month in the future. What date would you like OP to give details of?
Kickaha
QUOTE (uk_mike @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 20:52) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 13:52) *
Wait til 14 days is up and then return form telling them you have no idea who will be driving the car on the date mentioned?


It is better to respond (after the 14 days has expired) informing them where the vehicle was at the time on the NIP, and then to go on an tell them that the vehicle was in the location in question on the actual date. This should prompt them to check their records and hopefully drop the matter as out of time.

The risk with Peters response is that they view it as a simple refusal to respond and pass it to the COS for summons without checking the dates. It should be possible to defend/get the COS to drop one the error is revealed, but only after a lot of hassle that is best avoided is possible.

Doing this would prove that the OP was not misled by the error in the date, not a good move.

I am taking the view that the OP does not actually know the date it is meant to refer to unless he states otherwise.

Not knowing the date and time of the alleged incident puts the OP in a stronger position.
dogsbody1947
QUOTE (Logician @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 14:24) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 13:52) *
Wait til 14 days is up and then return form telling them you have no idea who will be driving the car on the date mentioned?


+1, but note that if the alleged careless driving involved an accident, the lack of a valid timely NIP will not assist you.


Thanks for your input, could you explain your response?
Kickaha
QUOTE (dogsbody1947 @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 21:17) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 14:24) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 13:52) *
Wait til 14 days is up and then return form telling them you have no idea who will be driving the car on the date mentioned?


+1, but note that if the alleged careless driving involved an accident, the lack of a valid timely NIP will not assist you.


Thanks for your input, could you explain your response?

A NIP within 14 days is not required for an accident, therefore they can correct the date at their leisure to a certain extent.
dogsbody1947
QUOTE (Kickaha @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 21:06) *
QUOTE (uk_mike @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 20:52) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 13:52) *
Wait til 14 days is up and then return form telling them you have no idea who will be driving the car on the date mentioned?


It is better to respond (after the 14 days has expired) informing them where the vehicle was at the time on the NIP, and then to go on an tell them that the vehicle was in the location in question on the actual date. This should prompt them to check their records and hopefully drop the matter as out of time.

The risk with Peters response is that they view it as a simple refusal to respond and pass it to the COS for summons without checking the dates. It should be possible to defend/get the COS to drop one the error is revealed, but only after a lot of hassle that is best avoided is possible.

Doing this would prove that the OP was not misled by the error in the date, not a good move.

I am taking the view that the OP does not actually know the date it is meant to refer to unless he states otherwise.

Not knowing the date and time of the alleged incident puts the OP in a stronger position.


I do know the actual time and date of the alleged incident. My query is about the validity of an incorrect NIP.



query is about the validity of an inaccurate NIP


QUOTE (Gan @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 15:37) *
Agree about waiting

Not the OP's job to second guess what date they meant or alert them to the error in time to correct it



Thanks!
Juliet1981
QUOTE (dogsbody1947 @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 21:17) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 14:24) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 13:52) *
Wait til 14 days is up and then return form telling them you have no idea who will be driving the car on the date mentioned?


+1, but note that if the alleged careless driving involved an accident, the lack of a valid timely NIP will not assist you.


Thanks for your input, could you explain your response?


What he means is that the law states that a NIP is not required in cases where "at the time of the offence or immediately afterwards an accident occurs owing to the presence on a road of a vehicle in respect of which the offence was committed".

Kickaha
QUOTE (dogsbody1947 @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 21:23) *
I do know the actual time and date of the alleged incident. My query is about the validity of an incorrect NIP.

query is about the validity of an inaccurate NIP

In that case the NIP can be considered valid in court, as you have not been disadvantaged by the error.
peterguk
QUOTE (dogsbody1947 @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 21:27) *
I do know the actual time and date of the alleged incident.



Well then as stated, you've not been disadvantaged by the error.

Was there an accident?
dogsbody1947
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 21:31) *
QUOTE (dogsbody1947 @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 21:27) *
I do know the actual time and date of the alleged incident.



Well then as stated, you've not been disadvantaged by the error.

Was there an accident?



The only allegation mentioned in the NIP is that of Driving without due care and attention.
peterguk
QUOTE (dogsbody1947 @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 21:39) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 21:31) *
QUOTE (dogsbody1947 @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 21:27) *
I do know the actual time and date of the alleged incident.



Well then as stated, you've not been disadvantaged by the error.

Was there an accident?



The only allegation mentioned in the NIP is that of Driving without due care and attention.


You didn't answer my question.
Logician
QUOTE (dogsbody1947 @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 21:39) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 21:31) *
QUOTE (dogsbody1947 @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 21:27) *
I do know the actual time and date of the alleged incident.
Well then as stated, you've not been disadvantaged by the error. Was there an accident?
The only allegation mentioned in the NIP is that of Driving without due care and attention.


Yes, but was there an accident?

Also were you stopped and spoken to at the time, and that was followed up by the NIP?

sgtdixie
We need to seperate the nip from a s172. The OP can legitimately say in respective the s172 that he wasn't driving at the time stated. If he knows full well what the incident was then arguably the wrong date on the nip won't prevent a prosecution.

Perhaps if the OP gives us the full story we may be able to advise.
dogsbody1947
QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 22:01) *
We need to seperate the nip from a s172. The OP can legitimately say in respective the s172 that he wasn't driving at the time stated. If he knows full well what the incident was then arguably the wrong date on the nip won't prevent a prosecution.

Perhaps if the OP gives us the full story we may be able to advise.



I take your point. The full story is complex. My fear is that a detailed description would enable identification thus enhancing the complexity. I think my best choice is to seek legal advice. Thanks to all those who have commented. I appreciate your help.
southpaw82
You're getting legal advice here.
jdh
QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 22:01) *
We need to seperate the nip from a s172. The OP can legitimately say in respective the s172 that he wasn't driving at the time stated. If he knows full well what the incident was then arguably the wrong date on the nip won't prevent a prosecution.

The OP thinks he knows what it's all about but there is the possibility that it refers to a different event that they're either not aware of.
Gan
I thought that either a verbal warning at the time or an actual accident were the only exceptions to the 14-day NIP rule and it doesn't matter that the OP has a good idea what it might be about

He can still only answer the S172 question that was asked
Kickaha
Gan,

This is not an issue of the NIP being outside 14 days, rather the date of the offence given on the NIP is wrong.

Given that the OP admits to knowing the correct date and the incident referred to I think the NIP is valid.
Logician
QUOTE (Kickaha @ Tue, 15 Jul 2014 - 15:18) *
Gan, This is not an issue of the NIP being outside 14 days, rather the date of the offence given on the NIP is wrong. Given that the OP admits to knowing the correct date and the incident referred to I think the NIP is valid.


I do not see how it can be valid, this is not something like a possibly vague locus where it is a question of whether the driver is disadvantaged, the NIP is fundamentally flawed, the OP may suspect he knows what it is about but he could be wrong. This situation is no different to there being no NIP at all. Unless there was an accident or he was spoken to at the time, which the OP has not answered, I do not think he can be convicted of whatever offence it is meant to refer to.

sgtdixie
To be pedantic it is either flawed or it isn't. It would be for a court to decide if the flaw is fatal to the prosecution.
Personally I think it is fatally flawed, but I'm not the bench.
stewpots
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 13:52) *
Wait til 14 days is up and then return form telling them you have no idea who will be driving the car on the date mentioned?


Yes I don't know what the issue is here, the NIP has not been issued correctly

They will have to issue another which will then be out of time

This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.