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birminghamdriver
Hi, I am hoping for some advice.

I went for a night out last week and had quite a bit to drink, my friend made sure I got home safe in a taxi, he was not drinking. However he then proceeded to borrow my car while I was out cold and unaware to go to the local shops and thinks he has got a speeding ticket. On waking up the next day I was very angry as he is not a named driver upon my policy or he admitted covered by his own insurance.

If I do get a speeding ticket what will I do? as him driving my car without insurance is bad enough. But if I put down his name on the form as the named driver that means we will both get into trouble, him for no insurance and speeding, and me for him driving my car, with no insurance, even if I was totally unaware. As when I got angry at him the next day he said just to say I was driving the car, if a speeding ticket arrived in the post.

However I am aware this is a criminal offence, all he has to do is lie and say I was aware he was borrowing my car and i'll be in trouble, for allowing him to drive it. I am unable to sleep with worry about what the best thing to do will be if a speeding ticket arrives.
peterguk
QUOTE (birminghamdriver @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 01:51) *
If I do get a speeding ticket what will I do?


The only correct answer is to name the driver at the time - your friend.
birminghamdriver
If I get a ticket I will have to put down his name, am I best going to the police station and confessing he borrowed my car while I was out cold? or wait for them to contact me?
peterguk
Simply name him.

He will receive his own S.172. Depending on speed and limit, he will receive SAC, CoFP or summons.

Until the NIP arrives with you, what happens later can't be predicted.

Don't do anything other than wait for the NIP.
ford poplar
If you get a s172 (FPN) then name your friend as driver and expect a game of ping pong.
If a PCN arrives the only defence would appear to be 'taken without consent' box.
Since 'friend' kindly sent you home in taxi, any chance the firm/driver remembers the fare for corroboration of your story?
MrAndersonA
As peter says there is the only really one option for you, name your friend, otherwise you could be looking at more serious charges. As it stands, you have done nothing wrong if you didn't knowingly allow him to drive uninsured..

it may also be unlikely that his insurance status would be investigated for a straightforward speeding offence, assuming it's in SAC/FP territory...unless you both try playing silly buggers!
birminghamdriver
I didn't want to say he took it without consent as it seems a very horrible thing to say, like he was stealing. also I was in the house with him so he only has to say I did allow him to, and it becomes my word against his. I was drunk asleep so would that be believed?

Guess i'll have to wait and see over the two weeks if ticket arrives and if it does, decide what to do! Do you think proving I was embarrassingly drunk, would help my case?
StuartBu
QUOTE (birminghamdriver @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 02:46) *
I didn't want to say he took it without consent as it seems a very horrible thing to say, like he was stealing. also I was in the house with him so he only has to say I did allow him to, and it becomes my word against his. I was drunk asleep so would that be believed?

Guess i'll have to wait and see over the two weeks if ticket arrives and if it does, decide what to do! Do you think proving I was embarrassingly drunk, would help my case?

Youve already been told several times what you need to do. IF You hear anything it will be a request to name who was driving and you complete the form naming him . After that HE will get his own form . Stop thinking of ways to turn a straightforward affair in to a mess. Anyway you might well hear nothing.
MrAndersonA
It may seem harsh to drop your mate in it, but remember it was his own (selfish) actions that put you in this position. Try to cover for him now and you may make things much worse for both of you (potential PCoJ)

as Stu says, you may well hear nothing. Either way, nobody here will advise you any differently to the above.
StrangeMan
What makes your friend think he's gotten a ticket? Was he stopped, or more presumably, flashed?
birminghamdriver
The next day he admitted using the car and admitted he thought he saw a flash as he drove down the road, so may have got a ticket. So now I just wait and see if he was right, it appears to be two weeks they have to inform you.
roythebus
They have 14 days from the date of the alleged offence to get a s172 through your letterbox.

To start lying about what happened will lead to an enforced "holiday" at the Queen's expense and your need for a supply of soap-on-a-rope.
colby
QUOTE (birminghamdriver @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 02:46) *
I didn't want to say he took it without consent as it seems a very horrible thing to say, like he was stealing. also I was in the house with him so he only has to say I did allow him to, and it becomes my word against his. I was drunk asleep so would that be believed?

Guess i'll have to wait and see over the two weeks if ticket arrives and if it does, decide what to do! Do you think proving I was embarrassingly drunk, would help my case?

You have a friend who TWOC'd your car and thinks he may have got a speeding ticket. That friend says to you, if you get a ticket you take it for me so I don't get prosecuted.

What you need to do is the following:
1. Name your friend
2. Tell him he isn't your friend any more

If he gets arsey...3. Tell the police the whole story

Friends like that you do not need.
TonyS
I don't see any suggestion that the friend might lie about being the driver, only that the OP is worried his friend might claim he was driving with permission. That wouldn't help said friend with either the speeding offence or any possible insurance offence.
birminghamdriver
Well its 4 days after the event today, so I guess I'll wait another 10/11 days and hope that nothing comes in the post, its going to be a nervous 10 days.

If it does I guess i'll have to say the truth and most probably be proscuted as I doubt they'll take my being drunk and unaware as an excuse. He took and drove my car and i'm the registered keeper so its my fault, even if he took it while I was out cold. I never normally get drunk, it was a sunny day and I had the day off and just had one to many. Guess I'll think about the best course of action if the ticket arrives, but any advise appreciated.

If I say he took it without my consent, he could just deny it and I have no evidence of being drunk.
birminghamdriver
If he's already going to get in trouble for speeding and no insurance, he may well just lie and say I was aware to avoid any further convictions. Thats what i'm worrying about.

And when I name him as the driver, and they see he had no insurance then i'll probably be facing a conviction. I really hope that ticket doesn't arrive. As how on earth will I explain this!
Kieran_e1
QUOTE (birminghamdriver @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 10:58) *
If he's already going to get in trouble for speeding and no insurance, he may well just lie and say I was aware to avoid any further convictions. Thats what i'm worrying about.

And when I name him as the driver, and they see he had no insurance then i'll probably be facing a conviction. I really hope that ticket doesn't arrive. As how on earth will I explain this!

they won't immediately know he has no insurance. He could be Third Party covered. I assume you have insurance yourself?

You may find, as has been noted here in other cases, that a prompt and accurate reply to any request may well be the end of the matter. start messing about and then the police may look deeper into the case and by the sounds of what you are posting you will talk yourself into a much more serious situation
colby
QUOTE (TonyS @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 10:29) *
I don't see any suggestion that the friend might lie about being the driver, only that the OP is worried his friend might claim he was driving with permission. That wouldn't help said friend with either the speeding offence or any possible insurance offence.

The clue is in the words...
QUOTE
...As when I got angry at him the next day he said just to say I was driving the car, if a speeding ticket arrived in the post.


The OP knows who was driving so should give that information.

If his friend then denies it and names the OP the police WILL look at the insurance database and bring the OP in for interview followed by the friend. That will then lead to a very bad outcome.
birminghamdriver
Yes I have fully comp insurance. It says i'm insured and entitled to drive the car and also

Provided that the person driving holds a licence to drive the vehicle, is driving in accordance to their licence and is not disqualified from holding or obtaining such a licence.



colby
QUOTE (birminghamdriver @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 11:43) *
Yes I have fully comp insurance. It says i'm insured and entitled to drive the car and also

Provided that the person driving holds a licence to drive the vehicle, is driving in accordance to their licence and is not disqualified from holding or obtaining such a licence.

I think that all refers to you not someone else.
JP1978
Think its pointless getting so stressed at this stage.

Many a thread on here from people thinking that they have been flashed or pinged from a mobile camera yet have heard nothing. There are plenty of GATSO's out there that are dummies and set up to flash but not take a picture. Think at one point, for example, Staffs police had circa 90 fixed GATSO units but less than 10 were fully operational at a time.

Its a waiting game but as said, DONT do anything unless the NIP comes in and if it does ASK HERE first before replying and do it promptly. From what I read there is no automatic checking of insurance status when you play ball.
birminghamdriver
Well I guess i'll just cross all my fingers that I don't get a ticket through the post, and if I do i'll worry about it then. At least they have to let you no within two weeks ish, so I no a date when I should be OK all being well.

Logician
The insurance position is not routinely checked, so if you name him and he admits driving he is likely to just suffer the consequences of speeding, if that is you receive anything at all. It is people who try to be clever about this stuff who get themselves into serious trouble, and his route to that is for him to deny he was driving. People shown to have knowingly named the wrong driver are usually sent to jail, and it can be years later, as it was for Chris Huhne and Vicky Pryce.
peterguk
QUOTE (birminghamdriver @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 12:05) *
At least they have to let you no within two weeks ish


14 days. No ish. (Assuming it's your car, and you've not moved or bought the car recently).
Kickaha
As has been said, if a NIP arrives you need to tell your mate that the ONLY way of getting a good result with this is for both of you to be honest.

There is a strong possibility that if you name your mate, and he the accepts that he was driving then the insurance situation will not be checked, so SAC or 3 points and a fine for him.

If it is checked then worst case is 6 points and a fine for both of you.

All other alternatives have a possibility of ending with jail time for one or both of you.

I know what I would do.
southpaw82
I don't see how the OP caused or permitted use without insurance. Unless anyone has case law to the contrary?
sgtdixie
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 13:40) *
I don't see how the OP caused or permitted use without insurance. Unless anyone has case law to the contrary?

I would agree. The taxi firm should be easy to trace, the driver should be able to corroborate the OP's claim he was well p1ssed which in turn will support his claim the car was TWOC'd. If his mate plays silly buggers he will face a TWOC allegation.
Logician
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 13:40) *
I don't see how the OP caused or permitted use without insurance. Unless anyone has case law to the contrary?


The OP's concern is this "all he has to do is lie and say I was aware he was borrowing my car and i'll be in trouble, for allowing him to drive it."

Then of course it would come down to who the court believed. This sounds like a friend the OP could do without, if he fears he might do that.

Billybriggsy
QUOTE (Logician @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 13:29) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 13:40) *
I don't see how the OP caused or permitted use without insurance. Unless anyone has case law to the contrary?


The OP's concern is this "all he has to do is lie and say I was aware he was borrowing my car and i'll be in trouble, for allowing him to drive it."

Then of course it would come down to who the court believed.


I dont believe that its a matter of 'who the court believe'

If the RK states that no permission was given to the 2nd driver then that is accepted by the court, regardless of the 2nd driver saying the opposite (which he would, wouldnt he!)
peterguk
QUOTE (Billybriggsy @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 16:33) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 13:29) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 13:40) *
I don't see how the OP caused or permitted use without insurance. Unless anyone has case law to the contrary?


The OP's concern is this "all he has to do is lie and say I was aware he was borrowing my car and i'll be in trouble, for allowing him to drive it."

Then of course it would come down to who the court believed.


I dont believe that its a matter of 'who the court believe'

If the RK states that no permission was given to the 2nd driver then that is accepted by the court, regardless of the 2nd driver saying the opposite (which he would, wouldnt he!)



Can you tell us why the evidence from the RK would not be subject to scrutiny or evidence to the contrary?
Logician
QUOTE (Billybriggsy @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 16:33) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 13:29) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 13:40) *
I don't see how the OP caused or permitted use without insurance. Unless anyone has case law to the contrary?
The OP's concern is this "all he has to do is lie and say I was aware he was borrowing my car and i'll be in trouble, for allowing him to drive it." Then of course it would come down to who the court believed.
I dont believe that its a matter of 'who the court believe' If the RK states that no permission was given to the 2nd driver then that is accepted by the court, regardless of the 2nd driver saying the opposite (which he would, wouldnt he!)


Really - where did you get that from? You could just as easily say the owner has a vested interest in saying he gave no permission if he is facing a permitting no insurance charge.

sgtdixie
I would agree. The op may well have to explain how his friend got the keys on a night out.
southpaw82
One question for the OP would be "why didn't you report the TWOC?". Realistically though, very few people are going to report a friend for TWOC, even if they've been flashed by a camera.
kanga
QUOTE ("birminghamdriver")
Hi, I am hoping for some advice.

My initial reaction was "report the 'friend' for TWOC."

Yeah, probably the end of a friendship. But a friend who expects you to commit a major crime to get him off a more minor one isn't much of a friend.

But the friend might then claim he had permission to drive, or even deny driving the car at all. Then it gets very messy.

I think the best action is: wait for the NIP, then name the friend, and he should name himself and take the minor penalty for speeding. Explain this process to the friend. When it's over, consider who you want as a friend.
birminghamdriver
i'm staying very friendly with my mate at the moment, and he's saying after I finally managed to get hold of him, he will say he was the driver if a speeding ticket comes through the post. After I explained the seriousness of lying, I think he just did not realise. I'm hoping a ticket will not arrive and will assess my next move if that happens. If it does he has already hinted that he thought I was happy with him taking the car, unsure how when I was passed out, but as that would be very difficult to prove I'll think about that if it happens.

He knows that any criminal record will end my career, i'll loose my job which is why he probably feels he can blackmail me into fibbing. What a situation, i'm staying sober from now on.

He knows that any criminal record will result in me losing my job, which is why i'm so careful and never lend my car to anyone, i'll loose everything. I have learnt my lesson and will never get drunk again!
peterguk
QUOTE (birminghamdriver @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 20:56) *
What a situation, i'm staying sober from now on.


Just take better care of your keys in future.
GAZ237
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 20:58) *
QUOTE (birminghamdriver @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 20:56) *
What a situation, i'm staying sober from now on.
Just take better care of your keys in future.


You say your friend made sure you got home safe in a taxi. Where was the car at this stage and how did you friend get your keys?










southpaw82
QUOTE (birminghamdriver @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 20:56) *
He knows that any criminal record will result in me losing my job, which is why i'm so careful and never lend my car to anyone, i'll loose everything. I have learnt my lesson and will never get drunk again!


IIRC, no insurance isn't a recordable offence so you wouldn't get a criminal record.
birminghamdriver
I don't remember getting home, but I assume after letting myself in I probably just threw my keys on the coffee table and crawled to bed, and awoke feeling very rough and hungover the next day, ashamed at myself for getting into a state. My mate obviously stopped the night in the spare room, and the next day admitted he'd used the car and thinks he saw a flash from a static speed trap. He wasn't drinking and is usually a very sensible person. I was to hung over until the next day to process what trouble he may now of gotten me into.

My car was on the driveway outside the house.
Gan
There isn't really a huge problem here

If no NIP is received after two weeks, problem solved

If a NIP is received, you have three options

1 Name yourself = jail for perverting course of justice if the truth ever emerges
2 Name your friend = he gets his own S172 request in due time
3 Don't reply = £500/6 points for S172 offence. You have no defence

Assuming you name your friend and he receives his own S172 :

1 He names himself immediately and accepts Course/COFP; police don't check insurance = problem solved
2 He names you = police investigation. Somebody is going to be prosecuted for PCJ

If police do investigate insurance :

1 Insurance invalid : He gets 6 points regardless. You escape penalty if he admits taking car without permission
2 Insurance is valid if he had your permission : Think about it

Your actions for now are obvious :

1 Name your friend
2 Check what your insurance actually covers in case damage limitation is needed. Friend does the same
P91
QUOTE (birminghamdriver @ Sun, 13 Jul 2014 - 08:06) *
The next day he admitted using the car and admitted he thought he saw a flash as he drove down the road


Where was this? The reason I ask is because your user name refers to Birmingham yet IIRC the West Midlands cameras are no longer active.
Logician
QUOTE (Gan @ Mon, 14 Jul 2014 - 11:04) *
................... 2 Insurance is valid if he had your permission : Think about it Your actions for now are obvious :

1 Name your friend

2 Check what your insurance actually covers in case damage limitation is needed. Friend does the same


OP said ".........he is not a named driver upon my policy or he admitted covered by his own insurance"

Gan
Meaning that the friend has nothing to gain by claiming that the OP gave him permission to drive

He's down for six points regardless if the police investigate insurance
birminghamdriver
Well if all the speed cameras across the entire west midlands are indeed turned off then that would indeed put my mind to rest, I hadn't heard this!
birminghamdriver
As i'm sad i've been and had a look at the offending speed camera, its a gatso yellow box one according to my google research and the direction means the camera would have gone off as he was driving towards the camera. Which from what i've read means I may be safe as they take rear facing photo's in order for a successful prosecution.
martinbiz
Depends on the camera type, a picture or GSV would be handy
birminghamdriver
Ok i am trying to add a photo, don't think it worked?
Jlc
Yup, Gatso - if it was set off approaching it then you won't hear a thing...
ford poplar
Can we have a GSV link please, as that camera seems to be pointing at on-coming traffic on a 1 way carriageway. Where are the secondary speed check lines?
dp7
QUOTE (ford poplar @ Tue, 15 Jul 2014 - 01:55) *
Can we have a GSV link please, as that camera seems to be pointing at on-coming traffic on a 1 way carriageway. Where are the secondary speed check lines?


Judging from that picture, it appears to be one that they can change the direction it faces.
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