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talkthattalk1017
Hi people,

Looking for some advice and opinions really.

Before I begin I want to say I have no one to blame but myself, completely my own fault.

Was driving on a dual lane road (limit is 30mph) and I was behind a learner driver that slammed it's breaks, I was doing around 50, undertook the learner driver and then the car in the first lane also slammed its breaks and so I went back into the outside lane. Turns out there were cops up ahead doing checks at the side of the road. Was pulled to the side and was told I could be done for both speeding and reckless driving but they were just gonna give me a £100 fine and 3 points for reckless driving. Could my punishment have been worse? Were they being lenient on me? And what would happen if I decided to take it to court?

Should mention this happened in Scotland
southpaw82
Considering you admit your guilt going to court could only be worse.
The Rookie
There is no longer an offence of reckless, it is careless (without due care and attention) or dangerous, the fixed penalty you have been offered is for careless, which it sounds like your driving was from your own description, I'd pay it and put it down to experience.
Hellfire8
I'd imagine it would be either Careless driving, inconsiderate driving, driving without due care and attention in which case I believe it could be one/a mixture of the following

  • Up to a £5000 fine
  • 3 - 9 Points
  • A discretionary Ban


Okay so that is the most severe BUT I would accept what they have offered you.
talkthattalk1017
Yeah sorry it was careless/inconsiderate driving sad.gif - Insurance is gonna fly up!

The officer seemed to be emphasising the fact I was only being done for careless driving and not the speeding also which puzzles me
The Rookie
Maybe they were feeling generous or maybe they didn't get a clear reading of your speed as the cars you were trying not to crash into were in the way!
Hellfire8
QUOTE (talkthattalk1017 @ Mon, 7 Jul 2014 - 22:09) *
Yeah sorry it was careless/inconsiderate driving sad.gif - Insurance is gonna fly up!

The officer seemed to be emphasising the fact I was only being done for careless driving and not the speeding also which puzzles me


How long have you been driving for? if less than 2 years consider yourself lucky,

If he decided to give you a ticket for both, 3 points for each and you've been driving for less than 2 years you'd get your license revoked under the new driver act.
southpaw82
QUOTE (Hellfire8 @ Mon, 7 Jul 2014 - 22:16) *
If he decided to give you a ticket for both, 3 points for each and you've been driving for less than 2 years you'd get your license revoked under the new driver act.


However, most forces don't allow officers to issue more than one FPN at a time. Moreover, for offences committed at the same time generally only one set of points would be awarded.
The Rookie
Very unlikely it would be six points, as they offences were committed at the same time it is very likely points would would only be awarded for the more serious in line with guidelines, though six is, I agree, possible.
Jlc
...so the fixed penalty seems to be a fair 'offer' to avoid a prosecution.
Hellfire8
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 7 Jul 2014 - 22:20) *
QUOTE (Hellfire8 @ Mon, 7 Jul 2014 - 22:16) *
If he decided to give you a ticket for both, 3 points for each and you've been driving for less than 2 years you'd get your license revoked under the new driver act.


However, most forces don't allow officers to issue more than one FPN at a time. Moreover, for offences committed at the same time generally only one set of points would be awarded.


To be honest though, even by reading his account it sounded as if he was bordering on dangerous driving or even still a higher penalty for careless if it went to court.

So yeah, I am making an assumption I would still think he was very lucky.
sgtdixie
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 7 Jul 2014 - 22:20) *
QUOTE (Hellfire8 @ Mon, 7 Jul 2014 - 22:16) *
If he decided to give you a ticket for both, 3 points for each and you've been driving for less than 2 years you'd get your license revoked under the new driver act.


However, most forces don't allow officers to issue more than one FPN at a time. Moreover, for offences committed at the same time generally only one set of points would be awarded.

Just to clarify. you can't issue more than 1 endorsable at one time, but you can issue more than 1 non endorsable.
Logician
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 7 Jul 2014 - 22:20) *
QUOTE (Hellfire8 @ Mon, 7 Jul 2014 - 22:16) *
If he decided to give you a ticket for both, 3 points for each and you've been driving for less than 2 years you'd get your license revoked under the new driver act.
However, most forces don't allow officers to issue more than one FPN at a time. Moreover, for offences committed at the same time generally only one set of points would be awarded.


Isn't that more than one endorsable FPN at the same time? Presumably because of the problem of getting more than one set of points.

Edit - Sorry sgtdixie, should have read to the end of the thread!





jambmw
Is it careless driving or inconsiderate driving?

There are some subtle differences, with some caselaw clarifying the latter.
sgtdixie
QUOTE (jambmw @ Tue, 8 Jul 2014 - 19:34) *
Is it careless driving or inconsiderate driving?

There are some subtle differences, with some caselaw clarifying the latter.

There is case law for both, but as they are both the same offence RTA 1988 s.3 it doesn't really matter.
jambmw
QUOTE (jambmw @ Tue, 8 Jul 2014 - 19:34) *
Is it careless driving or inconsiderate driving?

There are some subtle differences, with some caselaw clarifying the latter.


I'm only saying because Section 3 ZA4, Part 1, Road Traffic Act 1988 say:

(4) A person is to be regarded as driving without reasonable consideration for other persons only if those persons are inconvenienced by his driving.

Dilks v Bowman-Shaw [1981] RTR 4 DC seems to back this up:

Dilks v Bowman-Shaw [1981] RTR 4 DC, in which the defendant, whilst driving on the motorway, had overtaken cars on the inside before moving out to an offside lane. However, he had done this without causing actual inconvenience to any other driver, and was therefore acquitted. On appeal the acquittal was upheld.

Based on what the OP said, if he just did his overtake with little interaction/issue with the drivers, maybe no offence. Careless driving yes, but maybe not inconsiderate driving? The prosecution would need to prove that he inconvenienced the other drivers.

I'm just playing devils advocate.
crashdetective
QUOTE (jambmw @ Tue, 8 Jul 2014 - 19:53) *
QUOTE (jambmw @ Tue, 8 Jul 2014 - 19:34) *
Is it careless driving or inconsiderate driving?

There are some subtle differences, with some caselaw clarifying the latter.


I'm only saying because Section 3 ZA4, Part 1, Road Traffic Act 1988 say:

(4) A person is to be regarded as driving without reasonable consideration for other persons only if those persons are inconvenienced by his driving.

Dilks v Bowman-Shaw [1981] RTR 4 DC seems to back this up:

Dilks v Bowman-Shaw [1981] RTR 4 DC, in which the defendant, whilst driving on the motorway, had overtaken cars on the inside before moving out to an offside lane. However, he had done this without causing actual inconvenience to any other driver, and was therefore acquitted. On appeal the acquittal was upheld.

Based on what the OP said, if he just did his overtake with little interaction/issue with the drivers, maybe no offence. Careless driving yes, but maybe not inconsiderate driving? The prosecution would need to prove that he inconvenienced the other drivers.

I'm just playing devils advocate.


But doesn't make any difference if the OP accepts the penalty.
glasgow_bhoy
Sounds like you are getting off very lightly.

Taking this to court, the agrevating factors I see would be:

-Doing 50 in a 30
-Undertaking whilst doing 50 in a 30
-Undertaking a learner doing 50 in a 30, after catching up at speed behind said learner

It might be viewed as intimidating towards the learner, which could go down badly infront of a judge.

Take the 3 points and £100- you sounds like you got some of Police Scotland's more pleasant officers!
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