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Fatfunfan
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - November 2013
Date of the NIP: - 122 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 125 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A496, Bontddu, Gwynedd
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - My wife's car.
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Hello,
The alleged offence happened while we were on holiday in Wales and both of us were driving the vehicle during the holiday. We were caught on a mobile camera apparently doing 37mph. We have requested the photos, but it could be anyone driving the car, it's just a blur. We don't know who was driving at the time and we're not prepared to lie and guess without something to corroborate our guess. We've both now been Summonsed for failing to provide details of the driver. One problem is, the we live more than six hours from the court and my wife cannot guarantee making the court date because of work. She has consequently pleaded guilty by post, with strong mitigation along the lines of the defense under Sec 172(4) Reasonable Diligence. I can attend court and intend to fight it, mainly under the same section. My first question is; We have requested on two occasions that the Police supply us with the exact location of the offence and our direction of travel, but they have failed/refused to do so. With this information we could have, almost certainly, have been able to say who was driving at the time. Can I use this as part of my defense? Secondly, although we can't identify the driver from the photograph, the road markings on it are very distinctive. I have checked Googlemaps dozens of times and those road markings aren't in the section of road where they state the offence occurred. I have contacted the local authority, who tell me that there have been no changes/additions/amendments to the road markings since way before this version of Googlemaps. Can I use this in my defense? And lastly, if I win (which I intend to), can I speak on my wife's behalf and plead her innocence under the same defenses, even though she has already pleaded guilty, with the same defense/mitigation?
I would be grateful for any advice.


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - No
As you were not responsible for the vehicle, somebody else has named you as the driver. Were you driving? - Unsure
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • As you are not the person keeping the vehicle, the reasonable diligence test doesn't apply to you.
    Therefore, you are only required to provide such information as is in your power to give (e.g. the names and addresses of the possible drivers).

    You should reply within the 28 day period and explain the circumstances in a covering letter.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Thu, 03 Jul 2014 08:13:00 +0000
Jlc
Are you saying you've both been separately summonsed for FtF?
Pete D
Please explain the 122 days for the NIP to arrive.
This is very high risk and the penalty is 6 pouts and a circa £500 fine. What reasonable diligence have you under taken. Are the summons's just for FtF or is it speeding as well. Pete D
Jlc
QUOTE (Fatfunfan @ Thu, 3 Jul 2014 - 09:13) *
My first question is; We have requested on two occasions that the Police supply us with the exact location of the offence and our direction of travel, but they have failed/refused to do so. With this information we could have, almost certainly, have been able to say who was driving at the time. Can I use this as part of my defense?
They have given the location and the time as stipulated under the requirements.

QUOTE (Fatfunfan @ Thu, 3 Jul 2014 - 09:13) *
Secondly, although we can't identify the driver from the photograph, the road markings on it are very distinctive. I have checked Googlemaps dozens of times and those road markings aren't in the section of road where they state the offence occurred. I have contacted the local authority, who tell me that there have been no changes/additions/amendments to the road markings since way before this version of Googlemaps. Can I use this in my defense? And lastly, if I win (which I intend to), can I speak on my wife's behalf and plead her innocence under the same defenses, even though she has already pleaded guilty, with the same defense/mitigation?
A guilty plea will go straight to sentencing - 6 points and a large fine.

The photograph's primary purpose is not to capture the driver. It's to identify the vehicle and the offence. The s172 process puts the onus on the keeper etc. to nominate the driver. If with reasonable diligence the driver could not be identified then there's a potential statutory defence.

Can you explain how you've both ended up with s172's? As this could be critically important to any defence etc.
homeruk
QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 3 Jul 2014 - 09:35) *
QUOTE (Fatfunfan @ Thu, 3 Jul 2014 - 09:13) *
My first question is; We have requested on two occasions that the Police supply us with the exact location of the offence and our direction of travel, but they have failed/refused to do so. With this information we could have, almost certainly, have been able to say who was driving at the time. Can I use this as part of my defense?
They have given the location and the time as stipulated under the requirements.

QUOTE (Fatfunfan @ Thu, 3 Jul 2014 - 09:13) *
Secondly, although we can't identify the driver from the photograph, the road markings on it are very distinctive. I have checked Googlemaps dozens of times and those road markings aren't in the section of road where they state the offence occurred. I have contacted the local authority, who tell me that there have been no changes/additions/amendments to the road markings since way before this version of Googlemaps. Can I use this in my defense? And lastly, if I win (which I intend to), can I speak on my wife's behalf and plead her innocence under the same defenses, even though she has already pleaded guilty, with the same defense/mitigation?
A guilty plea will go straight to sentencing - 6 points and a large fine.

The photograph's primary purpose is not to capture the driver. It's to identify the vehicle and the offence. The s172 process puts the onus on the keeper etc. to nominate the driver. If with reasonable diligence the driver could not be identified then there's a potential statutory defence.

Can you explain how you've both ended up with s172's? As this could be critically important to any defence etc.


I'm guessing one named the other , then the other named the original.
AntonyMMM
Your wife can't plead guilty and then use a potential defence in mitigation - they will just record that as a Not Guilty plea and adjourn for her to attend.

Bonttdu appears to be quite a small place on the A496, and presumably the original NIP had the date/time of the alleged offence - so why was that not enough to establish who the driver was (which is what you will need to show to the court) ?

We need more information about who exactly has received what/when and what responses have been given
Jlc
QUOTE (homeruk @ Thu, 3 Jul 2014 - 09:41) *
I'm guessing one named the other , then the other named the original.

Circular references tend to end badly but let's wait for the OP to confirm.
Gan
I'm confused by your account and reference to "we"

Why would both of you receive a summons ?
Did she provide both names but say she wasn't sure which and you then did the same ?

Odd that the police didn't answer your questions. Perhaps there was something about your letter that looked like you were being difficult or on a fishing trip
Your wife could have dealt with this very easily
If the direction of travel was X, the driver was A
If the direction of travel was Y, the driver was B


Unfortunately you've jumped straight into the trap of refusing to guess because you couldn't be sure
If you're not sure and can't be proved wrong, a single name is the only response that doesn't result in a summons
Landing both of you with £500 fines, 6 points, a 600 mile round trip, overnight hotel and insurance problems for years is a high price when the alternative was one of you spending a few hours on the nearest speed awareness course

The court will be confused by your wife using S172(4) as mitigation and might change her plea to Not Guilty

Your only hope of a successful outcome is for your wife to change her plea to Not Guilty and convince the magistrates that you did everything possible to identify the driver.
Jlc
QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Thu, 3 Jul 2014 - 09:42) *
Bonttdu appears to be quite a small place on the A496, and presumably the original NIP had the date/time of the alleged offence - so why was that not enough to establish who the driver was (which is what you will need to show to the court) ?

Agreed - unless the OP is saying that within a few short period of time they went through location, swapped drivers, and then went through again.

The keeper and driver have subtlety different obligations under s172 - but we don't have the full picture yet.
AFCNEAL
As per the above - can the OP fill in the blanks please!

One thing's for sure, he can't 'plead' for his Wife...unless it's a dual charge?
Gan
I see that the OP has made some visits back to his thread and used the PM facility, but hasn't provided any more information
metalmick
better post up what they may wish to hear i suppose biggrin.gif
M
Gan
Hard to understand if they've made such a hash of things because :

1 They genuinely thought they had to be absolutely sure and have been penalised for honesty ?
2 They tried to be clever and were caught out ?
3 They asked questions to identify the driver and the police thought they were trying to be clever ?

I therefore can't tell for sure if the thread is a genuine request for help or the OP's testing a story
His wife's confusing guilty plea and the police refusal of information leads me to think that it's genuine and the reason for the mess might be #3

What I can't understand is why, considering the disaster they've made of a simple question, the OP's done nothing to clarify the story
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