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FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
BorgCymru
Parked my car in the disabled bay. Put my blue badge on the dash. Came back to find the local council parking officer had slapped a ticket on the car. Says I had failed to display my badge correctly.
Looking for information on the 'correct' way I found this. On the C.A.B. site.

QUOTE
If the blue badge isn’t displayed correctly, you could also receive a parking ticket. Make sure the badge is facing upwards, so that the details on the front can be clearly seen. It should be clearly placed on the dashboard.
Mine was as described.

Is it worth fighting ?

Thanks.



DancingDad
What is the PCN for ??
In fact post it up. Blank personal details, leave in times and location

Only thing I can think of is if time disc is set wrong or you overstayed the three hours
BorgCymru
Here you go. It was within the time limit.
orford
Clock shows 13.30 PCN issued at 16.13

Were you parked in the disabled bay outside Natwest?

http://goo.gl/maps/kKZqE

If so there is a 2hr limit there.
Mad Mick V
QUOTE (orford @ Tue, 1 Jul 2014 - 18:40) *
Clock shows 13.30 PCN issued at 16.13

Were you parked in the disabled bay outside Natwest?

http://goo.gl/maps/kKZqE

If so there is a 2hr limit there.


In that case the contravention is incorrect it should be Code 30 Parked for longer than permitted which has the "o" suffix to denote disabled bays AND is a lower penalty.

OP needs to request the CEO's notes to find out what the thinking is behind this PCN.

If it's just an upside down BB, it's pathetic.

Mick
hcandersen
The regs do not prescribe the orientation of the badge on the dashboard, only that it is displayed with the top side legible from outside the vehicle.
As regards the time disc, the only requirement is that it is visible and that it is set to the quarter hour during which parking commenced.


http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/blue...ty-guidance.pdf
BorgCymru
In Aberystwyth maybe Wales it's a 3 hour allowance.

How do I ask for his notes on this then ?

I notice that link to the guides say England. Is it different for Wales ?

Although you are right the sign says 2 hours. I'm sure it's changed to 3. I will go look later and take a new picture if it has

Annoying thing was I was walking towards the car and he slapped it on a walked off fast so I couldn't confront him.
Mad Mick V
I would be inclined to write the Council a contrite letter, enclosing a copy of your BB, saying you appreciate BB was displayed upside down and request that the Council use its discretion to cancel the PCN on this occasion.

If the Council rejects this representation it should specify why the PCN was issued so there would be no need of CEO's notes. It would also offer another discount period of 14 days.

I cannot recall anything like this being submitted to an adjudicator ---doesn't show Council in a positive light does it?

The Welsh legislation mirrors the English so there is no significant difference as far as I can make out.

Don't pay this; fight it all the way it's perverse.

Mick
DancingDad
Personally I would challenge that a valid badge was displayed in the correct manner.
And request all CEO notes and photographs that they may rely on in further enforcement if they do not cancel

If they reject they should re-issue the discount and provide more information. What they can't do is change the goalposts and try to assert staying beyond time. As Mick says, that would be a lower level penalty
BorgCymru
http://wales.gov.uk/docs/det/publications/...luerightsen.pdf


Seems to mention no orientation of the badge.

How to display the badge
When using the parking concessions
you
must display the badge
on the dashboard,
where it can be clearly read through the
front windscreen. If there is no dashboard
in your vehicle, you must still display the
badge in a place where it can be clearly
read from outside the vehicle. The front of
the badge should face upwards, showing
the wheelchair symbol.
The side showing
the photograph should not be visible

On another note. My mate lives right by the parking bay and as noticed that the parking rules sign is missing and has been for quite a few weeks now.
orford
One thought has the BB expired? Can't make out the expiry date.

QUOTE (BorgCymru @ Tue, 1 Jul 2014 - 20:08) *
On another note. My mate lives right by the parking bay and as noticed that the parking rules sign is missing and has been for quite a few weeks now.


Go and get a picture of the missing sign.
BorgCymru
Date says 11/08/2014
hcandersen
OP, your next action is to make a challenge because we don't know the CEO's reasoning and no amount of posts is going to change this, you must bring the authority into play.
BorgCymru
The sign had been turned around, but no proof it was turned around when the PNC was issued. But thats a different matter. The NIP wasn't for over stay.

OK thanks. I'm not so good at writing letetrs to these ppl is there a copy and print one somewhere I could download ?
DancingDad
Dear Sirs
Ref PCN ??? Vehicle Reg ???

A valid blue badge was correctly displayed. Your CEO photos will no doubt confirm this.
Accordingly the PCN was issued in error and must be cancelled.
Should you decide not to cancel I require copies of all CEO notes and photographs that you may rely on in further enforcement.
Hugs and Kisses
LANCS54
the hugs and kisses is what was missing on my appeal thats why it was dismissed then ;[ biggrin.gif
BorgCymru
Letter on the way.





No kisses where used or hurt in this publication.
SatNavSam
QUOTE (orford @ Tue, 1 Jul 2014 - 20:13) *
Go and get a picture of the missing sign.



That would be quite a feat!!! cool.gif
BorgCymru
OK I have had a reply

QUOTE
The Penalty Charge Notice is correctly issued It was placed with out clearly displaying a valid disabled persons badge in the prescribed manner as the issuing authority could not be seen on the blue badge


There is no issuing authority info beside the blue wheelchair logo and that's the only part not showing.
Rallyman72
OK, it seems as if the issuing authority have made an error because that box should be completed.
Esmerobbo
QUOTE (BorgCymru @ Mon, 21 Jul 2014 - 17:36) *
OK I have had a reply

QUOTE
The Penalty Charge Notice is correctly issued It was placed with out clearly displaying a valid disabled persons badge in the prescribed manner as the issuing authority could not be seen on the blue badge


There is no issuing authority info beside the blue wheelchair logo and that's the only part not showing.



On the badge there are 3 white boxes top is expiry date. Bottom is serial number, bigger centre box should have the issuing authority. It looks like yours does not have anything in the centre box.
BorgCymru
So it's not my fault there was no issuing information there. I didn't know there was meant to be.

Also wouldn't that be a different offence number than the one they fined me for ?
qafqa
QUOTE
Also wouldn't that be a different offence number than the one they fined me for ?

Ceredigion are part of the WPPP, their manual with code descriptions
is here https://www.wppp.org.uk/pdf/WPPP%20CPE%20Procedures.pdf
Code 40 features the word valid three times so it must be of importance to them.
Was the badge issued by Ceredigeon https://www.ceredigion.gov.uk/English/Resid...es/default.aspx
clark_kent
If its a genuine badge get a letter from the issuing authority confirming that and appeal again when you get the NTO.
DancingDad
Post all the rejection letter please.

At least we know the reason now.
Clear case where IMO discretion should be shown but as they are not, we move forward. I'm assuming the issued by name hasn't just faded ??

Disabled (badges) regulations to not define exactly what should be on a badge except by a pretty picture in the schedules that show the form... older badge style, has been updated but not on legislation as shown. I'm not seeing anything that says a badge is invalid without the issuing authorities name shown but assumption is that without relevant bits filled in, it could be queried.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/682/contents/made
Similarly with exemptions for disabled act 2000
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/68...gulation/8/made
Only that a disabled persons badge is displayed in the relevant position.

Anyone else got any thoughts on specific legislation that makes a badge invalid ?

There are issues to challenge on though.
Mitigation.... it is a badge issued to you that as far as you knew was valid.
Legitimate expectation, you've been using this badge for how long ?
Plus inadequate signage...the photo of the bay without any sign...missing sign.
And worth throwing in Discrimination to panic em.
clark_kent
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 21 Jul 2014 - 21:09) *
Post all the rejection letter please.

At least we know the reason now.
Clear case where IMO discretion should be shown but as they are not,



Why would they cancel, for all they know at this stage he could have bought the badge down the pub? Without the issuing authority it would be impossible to tell who issued the badge and if its genuine or beingused by the correct person.
DancingDad
One reason I want to see all the letter. How they phrase the whole letter regarding the badge, not just a snippet.

As easily as rejecting they could have asked for the issuing authority or confirmation of the badge holders right to hold one.
BorgCymru
Letter. Name and address and car reg removed.


Click to view attachment
DancingDad
Thank you
They do seem to be being reasonable as the paragraph in bold shows

Get onto the issuing authority tomorrow, explain the situation and if needs be, email them a copy of your badge and the letter.
Once you get the confirmation as requested, send a COPY to the PCN people, referencing their letter date??? (put a copy in with your note)
Very rare that a council does not cancel if information asked for is provided.

Goes without saying, also talk to the issuing authority about getting your badge replaced... they may even say write in on yourself but ask them before you do that.

Keep us posted please.
BorgCymru
Their Photo




Badge has already been replaced. What gets me is it's the same office dealing with the fine as the ones who issued it. I will contact them tomorrow now. It's 20 miles away.

Thank you.
Enceladus
Was the badge issued by Ceredigion county council?
Is it the case that the issuing authority was an ink stamp and is now sun faded? Or was it just never there at all?
BorgCymru
Yep issued by Ceredigion Council.

I've no idea as I never noticed it missing.
Enceladus
Do you still have the errant blue badge? Or at least some good photocopies of both sides?
What expiry did they give you on the new one? It should be three years from the date of expiry of the old badge, unless it was a straight replacement.

Did you contact the issuing agency and get written confirmation that yours was a legit badge? When you get your letter make sure you get a good scan / photocopy and send as stated in the rejection letter. I imagine they will cancel. If they don't then challenge all the way.

Your form of badge was superceded by a new design with a pre-printed HMSO serial number and hologram in 2007, at least in England & Scotland. Maybe 2009 in NI? This was because your type of badge was subject to abuse. Anybody with access to a laminator bought in Lidl and a colour printer could easily make one. It was fairly common practice, but not mandatory, to use a rubber stamp in the issuing authority section which was a bit more difficult to reproduce.

Quite frankly I am amazed that you got this far without trouble. It seems that the Civil Enforcement Officer was quite right to be suspicious and issue a PCN. For once a CEO was actually tackling the issue of BB fraud. You were just unlucky.

In case you need them the applicable regulations are The Disabled Persons (Badges for Motor Vehicles) (Wales) Regulations 2000.
BorgCymru
Yep fair enough I can see you point that he was just doing his job. I don't have any other photos because until this point I never knew anything was missing. The new one is all posh and holographic.


Will phone Ceredigion CC
BorgCymru
OK just received this as well

QUOTE
Re : Notice of rejection of “challenge” – Traffic Management Act 2004
PCN No : GI00430126
Vehicle :
Date Issued : 28/06/2014 16:13:55
Location of Contravention : Baker Street (Aberystwyth)

Having received your letter dated 21/07/2014, I have reviewed the case and have found no additional evidence to support cancellation of the Penalty Charge Notice.

I do agree with you that the Council was at fault for not printing the Council logo / name or using an ink of sufficient quality to ensure it does not faded if it had of been printed.

However, we do still require the information my colleague previously requested; “However, if you could provide a letter from the issuing authority (that issued the Blue Badge) confirming that the Blue Badge is valid I would be happy to review your case. It is also recommended that you inform the issuing authority that not all of the details are visible on the Blue Badge and that a replacement should be given to you. It is also recommended that you do not use the Blue Badge until you have received a replacement Blue Badge in order to prevent future Penalty Charge Notices being issued.“

As explained in our previous letter, a “Notice to Owner” will be sent to the owner/keeper of the vehicle as registered with the DVLA. If you are the driver but not the owner, and you still wish to make formal representations, you are advised to contact the owner who can respond to the Notice accordingly.

If this Council then rejects the representations to the “Notice to Owner”, a notice of rejection will be sent with details of the appeal procedure. You cannot appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal until the “Notice to Owner” has been issued and formal representations rejected.

Yours sincerely
Enceladus
Did you ring up the blue badge office and ask for written confirmation that the original badge was genuine?
You mentioned that you have a new badge. How did that come about? And when does the new badge expire?
clark_kent
QUOTE (BorgCymru @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 00:14) *
Letter. Name and address and car reg removed.


Click to view attachment



Priceless!! It clearly states they will review their descision (its even in bold!) if you get a letter confirming the badge was legit. Instead of doing so you come on here and waste peoples time by giving only half the story, why not just get a letter and get the PCN cancelled??
DancingDad
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 19:23) *
QUOTE (BorgCymru @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 00:14) *
Letter. Name and address and car reg removed.


Click to view attachment



Priceless!! It clearly states they will review their descision (its even in bold!) if you get a letter confirming the badge was legit. Instead of doing so you come on here and waste peoples time by giving only half the story, why not just get a letter and get the PCN cancelled??


Clark, I often wonder why you feel the need to gratuitously insult people who come on here either to help or for help.
If you really want to avoid having your time wasted, do not visit. Simples.
clark_kent
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 19:45) *
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 19:23) *
QUOTE (BorgCymru @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 00:14) *
Letter. Name and address and car reg removed.


Click to view attachment



Priceless!! It clearly states they will review their descision (its even in bold!) if you get a letter confirming the badge was legit. Instead of doing so you come on here and waste peoples time by giving only half the story, why not just get a letter and get the PCN cancelled??


Clark, I often wonder why you feel the need to gratuitously insult people who come on here either to help or for help.
If you really want to avoid having your time wasted, do not visit. Simples.


If you don't like my views you could try doing the same!
DancingDad
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 22:08) *
..........If you don't like my views you could try doing the same!


And miss the witty banter that we have come to expect from you wink.gif
BorgCymru
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Tue, 22 Jul 2014 - 19:23) *
Priceless!! It clearly states they will review their descision (its even in bold!) if you get a letter confirming the badge was legit. Instead of doing so you come on here and waste peoples time by giving only half the story, why not just get a letter and get the PCN cancelled??



COCK.

I didn't get the letter until I asked for advice on here.

Now go crawl back under your rock.

You waisted your own time by reading the thread and then writing some irrelevant drivel.

Cool there is a block option.
Enceladus
I suggest that throwing insults won't get your PCN cancelled. However answering some questions might help.

So did you ring up the blue badge office and ask for written confirmation that the original badge was genuine? If not, then why not?

The council letter is dated the 14th July, so presumably you received it on the 15th; it advises you to get the badge replaced. On Monday you said this about the missing issuing authority info, "I didn't know there was meant to be.". Yet it seems you already have a new badge. Why did that come about? And when does the new badge expire?

Please confirm that this was/is your blue badge?

BorgCymru
Yes I am waiting now for the letter of confirmation. The woman in the BB department seemed to know about the stamp fading in the sun. She mentioned it first.
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