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AAA123
Hi ,
I got a parking ticket from the council for parking in the loading bay on a Saturday morning (5th Apr) between 8:16 to 8:23.
I am a Doctor and was working on a Saturday morning and the surgery is on High Street. We have one Doctors bay where somebody had parked (not a Dr) so clearly my bay was blocked and I parked to get my stuff out. I asked receptionist to keep an eye and was checking every two three minutes that as soon as the other car moves I'll park there. As I had patients waiting I started seeing them thinking in between I'll move my car.
Unfortunately was ticketed between the above time Contravention (Parked in Loading bay).

I emailed them (had email address of parking officer who we had dealt with before for parking permit etc) who forwarded it to the Parking appeals people. Did not hear from them till end of April. When enquired was toldthey had posted a letter on 28th Apr which I received on or around 5th May. It stated the appeal has been rejected and I can pay the reduced fine in 28 days or else they will send Notice to Owner form.
I then appealed online stating the circumstances around 5th May.

I have not heard anything so far.
Please advise shall I enquire or wait for them to get back?
What are the chances of me winning the appeal if I take it further?
alloageorge
they cant send a notice of rejection until the 28 days are up.
if you don't hear in the next week then call them
AAA123
QUOTE (AAA123 @ Wed, 4 Jun 2014 - 17:35) *
Hi ,
I got a parking ticket from the council for parking in the loading bay on a Saturday morning (5th Apr) between 8:16 to 8:23.
I am a Doctor and was working on a Saturday morning and the surgery is on High Street. We have one Doctors bay where somebody had parked (not a Dr) so clearly my bay was blocked and I parked to get my stuff out. I asked receptionist to keep an eye and was checking every two three minutes that as soon as the other car moves I'll park there. As I had patients waiting I started seeing them thinking in between I'll move my car.
Unfortunately was ticketed between the above time Contravention (Parked in Loading bay).

I emailed them (had email address of parking officer who we had dealt with before for parking permit etc) who forwarded it to the Parking appeals people. Did not hear from them till end of April. When enquired was toldthey had posted a letter on 28th Apr which I received on or around 5th May. It stated the appeal has been rejected and I can pay the reduced fine in 28 days or else they will send Notice to Owner form.
I then appealed online stating the circumstances around 5th May.

I have not heard anything so far.
Please advise shall I enquire or wait for them to get back?
What are the chances of me winning the appeal if I take it further?


Hi,
As per my previous post I've today received the Notice to Owner from the council. I am posting the pics of the penalty notices received. Please advise. The second pic Iwill be posting was not addressed to me but to one of the receptionists although the surgery address was correct. This is the notice which we received after enquiring around end of April (as mentioned above).
Please advise of the next steps. I'll try and take pictures of the parking bays and post them in the next few days.
Thanks for your help in advance.



AAA123
Hi,
I would like to clarify few queries after reading some posts here !!
As mentioned in my 1st post I received a Penalty notice (picture in previous post) on 05.04.2014 for parking in a loading bay . I emailed the Parking officer we had dealt before for the parking permit."
Dear Mr XXX
Sorry I didnt get back to you with the car regsitrations as we were busy with our year end submissions till 31st march.
It is unfortunate that I got another ticket today. BY01601916 on my car. Can you please look in that. It is a shame when I am seeing patients inside I keep getting tickets on my car.

Thanks
Dr XXX
Surgery address & Post code.

The reply I received is as below
Thank you for your email. I am sorry to hear you received another Penalty Charge Notice.

I have arranged for your and Ms XXX emails to be logged as a challenge against the Penalty Charge Notice and a member of the Appeals and Representations Team will consider your comments and reply back to you. The case and the outstanding charge will be frozen at the reduced charge until your challenge is responded to. The response will by post to the address you have provided below. If you would like for our response to go to a different address, please send an email to parking@XX.gov.uk as soon as possible.

If you receive any further Penalty Charge Notices that do not relate to the Doctor’s bay, please use our online challenge facility on our website at www..gov.uk/parking

With regard to logging the vehicles on our database to prevent Doctor’s vehicles being issued Penalty Charge Notices for parking in the Doctor’s bay, I can confirm that they have all been logged. The electronic permit to park in the bay is valid until the XXXXX. Please let us know near the expiry time whether you require an extension. Please also let us know when any vehicles need to be changed or further vehicles added


After that I appealed online . We didn't receive any reply till end of April and when enquired we got a letter dated 28th Apr but we received it on 5th May 2014. The letter was addressed to the receptionist and not me .
Can I challenge on the basis that we received the letter after 28 days (5th may). Also as it was my car the letter should have been addressed to me and not to the receptionist.

Anyways I appealed on 5th May again online and didnt hear anything till today when I received the Notice to Owner form at my Home address.

Please any advise is appreciated.

Thanks
AAA123









Dear all, here are the pics of the road. As this car was parked in Doctor's bay I parked in the loading bay thinking I'll move as the other car moves.
I drove from the left side (in pic i61) in the direction where white van is coming behind the silver van. Then I moved right to park and as the Doctor's bay was blocked I parked in the loading bay.

Please advise as I need to appeal to NTO.

Thanks
AAA123
Any advise please on replying to the NTO !!
DancingDad
On the face of it, bang to rights but possibly with mitigation that hasn't been considered.
Could you post up whatever you wrote in your challenge pls.
AAA123
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 30 Jul 2014 - 21:24) *
On the face of it, bang to rights but possibly with mitigation that hasn't been considered.
Could you post up whatever you wrote in your challenge pls.


Thanks!!

Hi, I challenged online explaining the circumstances why I was parked there as my space was blocked and I had to see a patient in between. As it was online I don't have the exact wording .

But does it matter when we received the first rejection (although it is dated 28th April but we received it on 5th May) and that too after enquiring from the council.
Also it was addressed to the receptionist and not to me.

I'll try and draft something and then post over the next few days.

Thanks
hcandersen
You appear to have written to the authority three times: once to your local CEO (but this could not be construed as a challenge); once when you 'appealed online' following receipt of your local CEO's reply; and once when you received the council's reply, presumably to your online challenge.
They are obliged to consider your challenge in detail, but we don't know if they have because you haven't posted what you wrote, presumably you don't have it.
We've also not seen the PCN.
Can't offer much of an informed diagnosis or recommend treatment based on such little info.
In its continued absence, I therefore suggest you make reps based on the fact that as the council have established a Doctors bay they recognise the importance attached to providing this facility which allows doctors guaranteed access to a parking area. Clearly this has potential benefits for the community as it should ensure that patients are seen on time. You felt forced to resort to parking in the loading bay because there was an unauthorised car parked in the Doctors bay. On reflection this was probably an error, although you intended to move your car as soon as possible. You would ask that the authority exercise its discretion in the circumstances of this case and cancel the PCN.
DancingDad
As HCA says, without wording of the challenge(s) made, difficult to argue whether or not council considered challenges as they should.
You are however now at the position where it is no more expensive to continue challenging then to pay, even if you ultimately lose.

Would the MsXXX referred to by the permit people be your receptionist by any chance. From the wording in the reply, I suspect that both yourself and her contacted them. If so, that is why the reply was to her. If not and they picked your receptionist's name out of a hat after you had challenged and presumably given your details, I'd certainly claim Procedural Impropriety in that they failed to send the informal rejection to the person making the informal challenge.
I'd also suggest Procedural Impropriety in that they failed to consider that you were the Doctor on duty that day and had no option but to park in the nearest available bay when an unauthorised person had parked in the Doctor's bay provided by the authority.
Without details of what you actually said this could easily fall flat if/when authority tells you what was said/stated in informals. But assuming you said similar to them as us, they haven't mentioned it whatsoever

The other ground is Any Other Reasons. That is where you put in as HCA says, that your specific bay was blocked by someone (who they penalised) and you were forced to find alternative parking. Initially unloading from your car which is a legitimate use of the loading bay but then, when you had to see patients, by necessity.

And please post up the PCN and rest of the NTO...just in case there are nuggets of gold in errors on them.
AAA123
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 30 Jul 2014 - 23:03) *
You appear to have written to the authority three times: once to your local CEO (but this could not be construed as a challenge); once when you 'appealed online' following receipt of your local CEO's reply; and once when you received the council's reply, presumably to your online challenge.
They are obliged to consider your challenge in detail, but we don't know if they have because you haven't posted what you wrote, presumably you don't have it.
We've also not seen the PCN.
Can't offer much of an informed diagnosis or recommend treatment based on such little info.
In its continued absence, I therefore suggest you make reps based on the fact that as the council have established a Doctors bay they recognise the importance attached to providing this facility which allows doctors guaranteed access to a parking area. Clearly this has potential benefits for the community as it should ensure that patients are seen on time. You felt forced to resort to parking in the loading bay because there was an unauthorised car parked in the Doctors bay. On reflection this was probably an error, although you intended to move your car as soon as possible. You would ask that the authority exercises its discretion in the circumstances of this case and cancels the PCN.



QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 31 Jul 2014 - 01:10) *
As HCA says, without wording of the challenge(s) made, difficult to argue whether or not council considered challenges as they should.
You are however now at the position where it is no more expensive to continue challenging then to pay, even if you ultimately lose.

Would the MsXXX referred to by the permit people be your receptionist by any chance. From the wording in the reply, I suspect that both yourself and her contacted them. If so, that is why the reply was to her. If not and they picked your receptionist's name out of a hat after you had challenged and presumably given your details, I'd certainly claim Procedural Impropriety in that they failed to send the informal rejection to the person making the informal challenge.
I'd also suggest Procedural Impropriety in that they failed to consider that you were the Doctor on duty that day and had no option but to park in the nearest available bay when an unauthorised person had parked in the Doctor's bay provided by the authority.
Without details of what you actually said this could easily fall flat if/when authority tells you what was said/stated in informals. But assuming you said similar to them as us, they haven't mentioned it whatsoever

The other ground is Any Other Reasons. That is where you put in as HCA says, that your specific bay was blocked by someone (who they penalised) and you were forced to find alternative parking. Initially unloading from your car which is a legitimate use of the loading bay but then, when you had to see patients, by necessity.

And please post up the PCN and rest of the NTO...just in case there are nuggets of gold in errors on them.



Thanks a lot .I'll post the rest of the PCN and the NTO . Surely I don't have the exact wording of my challenge but will try and draft something based on your advise.

Thanks once again !!
AAA123





AAA123
Hi again,
I've posted the PCN (both sides) and NTO (both sides) .
I am posting a draft reply. Please advise !!


Dear Sir or Madam,

Parking ticket number: XXXXXX
Vehicle registration number: XXXXX

I am writing to make a formal appeal with regards to the above parking ticket. I am making my appeal due to the following reasons:
Mitigating circumstances
There are mitigating circumstances to explain why I parked where I did so I am requesting that the fine be waived for this reason.
I was the doctor on call and was going to park in Doctor’s bay just outside the surgery. As I turned to park in my bay I accidentally parked in the loading bay as both bays are next to each other and I had to mind the oncoming traffic. I left the Doctors bag , paperwork and some surgery supplies in the car and went to keep my hand bag and folder inside the surgery. It was only after I got off my car I realised there was a car parked in the Doctors bay blocking my space.
I still had my doctors bag and some surgery supplies and paperwork in the car which I had to come back to collect and perhaps would need the help of the receptionist.
As I was coming out a patient in the waiting room requested to speak to me urgently. She was very upset about her 93 years old poorly mum who had a recent toe amputation and was admitted in the hospital. In my professional capacity as a GP my priority at the time was patient care and not moving my car. So I had to consult the patient and hence got delayed to move my car.
My car was not obstructing the traffic. I asked the receptionist to keep a lookout for my space. I was going to move my car anyways whether my space was available or not .In fact I did move my car immediately after speaking to this patient.
As the council have established a Doctors bay it recognises the importance attached to providing this facility which allows doctors guaranteed access to a parking area. Clearly this has potential benefits for the community as it should ensure that patients are seen on time. I felt forced to resort to parking in the loading bay because there was an unauthorised car parked in the Doctors bay. On reflection this was probably an error, although I intended to move my car as soon as possible. I would ask Bromley Council exercises its discretion in the circumstances of this case and cancels the PCN.
I am a law-abiding citizen, and made an honest mistake and am now fully aware of the parking restrictions. I will ensure this does not happen in future.

Thanks
AAA123

Advise please !!
rolleyes.gif
DancingDad
Needs a touch of tidying and may as well include that you were unloading as you have detailed the need.

Did you or your receptionist say anything similar in informal reps? Surely given 3 challenges, one of you has a copy ??
I'd love to include failing to consider but we need at least the gist of what was said in reps to have any chance.
If nothing else, could you contact the permit person and ask them for a copy of what was passed to parking ????

We have some time before the 28 day deadline expires, pls help us to help you in that time.
hcandersen
IMO, you are changing your story:
You didn't' park in the loading bay by mistake, you knew it was a loading bay. It was a conscious act.
I left my supplies etc..... in the car is verging on a defence of unloading, but you weren't and you've not mentioned it hitherto;
I was going to move my car anyways ... see below;
I am a locum/on-call doctor, or whatever;
I had an appointment at **** (was this pre-arranged or last minute, hopefully the latter);
I arrived at the surgery just in time for the appointment by could not park my car in the designated Doctors parking place etc......;
I left the car in the loading bay in order to see my patient on time as there were no alternatives available. I moved the car immediately after my appointment.
Or something like the above.
You are not presenting a defence (are you?) so don't make your request for discretion less than clear.
AAA123
Hi, One of my emails I sent to the Parking officer is posted on 24th july post and likely he logged that as the challenge, I can try and ask them to give me a copy of the online but it is hard to get hold of anyone as there are no contact numbers.

The problem with admitting to parking in a loading bay as had nowhere to park is that on one occasion when my Bay was blocked by someone I emailed the same officer somewhat frustrated (this was days after I got my ticket) .He categorically mentioned 'We can't allow you to park any restricted parking /loading bay even though your space is blocked. ' So I am a bit conscious that this may fall flat if I say I parked in the nearest available bay !!


hcandersen
Don't you just love it when a CEO acts beyond their authority - I read 'we cannot allow..' as meaning that if you do we will not cancel a PCN in any circumstances.
It is the authority's task to consider reps and each case must be considered on its merits. There is no such thing as an inviolable rule, because this fetters their discretion.
Anyway, you did park there consciously and we do not advocate being economical with the truth. You are not submitting a defence at this stage but asking them to exercise discretion.
AAA123
I've emailed the Parking officer and Council to have me a copy of the challenge but has not heard anything since Monday. I don't think I will hear either.

I've amended my reply and would be appreciate your comments !!
Dear Sir or Madam,

Parking ticket number: XXXXXX
Vehicle registration number: XXXXX

I am writing to make a formal appeal with regards to the above parking ticket. I am making my appeal due to the following reasons:
Mitigating circumstances
There are mitigating circumstances to explain why I parked where I did so I am requesting that the fine be waived for this reason.
I was the doctor on call and as I arrived at the surgery the designated doctor’s bay was blocked. I parked in the nearest available bay which was the loading bay.
I had to see a patient urgently and as I was coming out to move my car a patient in the waiting room requested to speak to me . She was very upset about her 93 years old poorly mum who had a recent toe amputation and was admitted in the hospital. In my professional capacity as a GP my priority at the time was patient care and not moving my car. So I had to consult the patient and hence got delayed to move my car.
My car was not obstructing the traffic. I asked the receptionist to keep a lookout for my space .I moved my car immediately after speaking to this patient.
As the council have established a Doctors bay it recognises the importance attached to providing this facility which allows doctors guaranteed access to a parking area. Clearly this has potential benefits for the community as it should ensure that patients are seen on time. I felt forced to resort to parking in the loading bay because there was an unauthorised car parked in the Doctors bay. On reflection this was probably an error, although I intended to move my car as soon as possible. I would ask Bromley Council exercises its discretion in the circumstances of this case and cancels the PCN.
I am a law-abiding citizen, and made an honest mistake and am now fully aware of the parking restrictions. I will ensure this does not happen in future.

Thanks

DancingDad
I see no harm in including that initially you had medical equipment to unload so had to park close to the surgery. And that the intention was to move the car once the unloading was complete. Either to an suitable parking place or hopefully, in the Doctor's bay
AAA123
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 6 Aug 2014 - 22:16) *
I see no harm in including that initially you had medical equipment to unload so had to park close to the surgery. And that the intention was to move the car once the unloading was complete. Either to an suitable parking place or hopefully, in the Doctor's bay



Thanks .

Any more comments please !!
AAA123
Hi ,
Further to my previous posts I've now received the 'Notice of Rejection' posted below.
Now have to appeal to the Adjudicator.





I've looked up and they didn't write to me on 20th June( as they have mentioned) .
The paperwork I've received so far a) the initial penalty on 5th April 2014 , 2) Appeal refusal dated 28th Apr 2014 c) Notice to owner dated 23rd july

As mentioned in my previous posts I had eamil communications with the Parking officer but none of them was on 20th June.

So shall I appeal on procedural impropriety as well along with mitigating circumstances. On the Notice of Appeal form there is no option of 'Mitigating circumstances' so how shall I go about it.

Any advise please.

Thanks
DancingDad
As you say it's off the adjudication.

But once again, frustration that we do not know what you wrote in earlier challenges, which really leaves us in the dark and guessing.
Once the evidence pack arrives, which will only be just before the hearing if you do take it to adjudication, there will be copies.

Re the NOR, they have mixed earlier informal challenges with the formal Notice of Rejection.
As in law, the driver and Owner are regarded as two separate entities, simply referring to reasons in informal challenges is naughty but not really a winner on it's own.

What I really feel could win it is failing to consider mitigating circumstances. Also known as Other Compelling Reasons.
This is a mandatory ground and though they do not have to accept the mitigation, they have to consider.
No matter what was in informal reps, the formal challenge was four square on this.
The NOR simply refers to loading restriction and lack of loading but does not include anything specific on you being a doctor and the need for you to still see patients. Or the lack of a Doctor's space cos someone else had pinched it unlawfully.

So no brainer to go forward to PATAS and hope that in earlier challenges the fact you had other compelling reasons and they ignored is a common thread.
AAA123
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 24 Aug 2014 - 11:26) *
As you say it's off the adjudication.

But once again, frustration that we do not know what you wrote in earlier challenges, which really leaves us in the dark and guessing.
Once the evidence pack arrives, which will only be just before the hearing if you do take it to adjudication, there will be copies.

Re the NOR, they have mixed earlier informal challenges with the formal Notice of Rejection.
As in law, the driver and Owner are regarded as two separate entities, simply referring to reasons in informal challenges is naughty but not really a winner on it's own.

What I really feel could win it is failing to consider mitigating circumstances. Also known as Other Compelling Reasons.
This is a mandatory ground and though they do not have to accept the mitigation, they have to consider.
No matter what was in informal reps, the formal challenge was four square on this.
The NOR simply refers to loading restriction and lack of loading but does not include anything specific on you being a doctor and the need for you to still see patients. Or the lack of a Doctor's space cos someone else had pinched it unlawfully.

So no brainer to go forward to PATAS and hope that in earlier challenges the fact you had other compelling reasons and they ignored is a common thread.


Thanks ,
Any suggestions hearing in person or by phone/post is better?
Also one of the forum members 'Tired of bureaucracy' a district nurse has won her appeal .She had somewhat similar circumstances that was seeing a patient and had wrong permit etc.
When I write can I quote that case or not ??
hcandersen
IMO, the duty on the authority is clear, see regulation 5:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/5/made
Consideration means that, a consideration of the grounds of representation. It does not mean to compare with any prior challenge, spot the difference, and if none to say that their previous answers apply. To me this is not consideration as envisaged. It is also crucial that the authority respond to the reps in full (where they are not without merit or frivolous) because it is this response which forms part of the mandatory items of evidence at adjudication. Prior challenges and correspondence are lightweight matters compared to representations in response to a NTO and an authority's formal response.
In addition to this point for your appeal, they've misstated the period in which you're permitted to make an appeal and their powers to serve a Charge Certificate: these are 28 days beginning on the date of service, such extended period as an adjudicator may allow and 28 days beginning on the date of service respectively.
DancingDad
Certainly use Tiredof B's case to support the failure to consider. It is TPT so PATAS guys may treat it as something from another planet and any previous decision is not binding on adjudicators but it may give them the idea that they can find in your favour despite you being bang to rights in the loading bay.

As that decision shows, while an adjudicator cannot find on mitigation they can still cancel if they decide that the council did not apply mitigation when they should.
AAA123
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 25 Aug 2014 - 11:27) *
Certainly use Tiredof B's case to support the failure to consider. It is TPT so PATAS guys may treat it as something from another planet and any previous decision is not binding on adjudicators but it may give them the idea that they can find in your favour despite you being bang to rights in the loading bay.

As that decision shows, while an adjudicator cannot find on mitigation they can still cancel if they decide that the council did not apply mitigation when they should.


Thanks . How do I get the details of the case. Although she has sent me a message on this forum and explained her appeal process etc. But the exact details etc are not available on the forum cases.
Will TPT be able to provide if requested ??
DancingDad
Ask her if she will send a copy to you. Or if just the number, you can email TPT and ask for a copy of the dcsision. Summary, not transcript, they charge a fortune for the latter.
AAA123
Hi all,
I have PATAS hearing this week and have received this reply from the council.

Any advise /tips for hearing will be much appreciated.







DancingDad
The line "The council does not consider there are any additional mitigating circumstances in this case" falls fair and square into Tired of B's decision.
There are some other TPT decisions similar come up recently I'll see if I can find.
Did you get the summary in Tired's case??
AAA123
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 5 Oct 2014 - 22:57) *
The line "The council does not consider there are any additional mitigating circumstances in this case" falls fair and square into Tired of B's decision.
There are some other TPT decisions similar come up recently I'll see if I can find.
Did you get the summary in Tired's case??


Thanks ,
Yes I am using her case as an example and have sent it to PATAS in my evidence pack.

Thanks


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