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johnsmith2006
My friend has got a speeding NIP as registered keeper, requested photos which showed, from the back, that his other friend was driving (is insured to drive the car). No reasons to dispute the speeding fact and the procedures on serving the NIP.

They have to respond to an extended deadline very soon. The driver is currently away in his home non-EU country whose national he remains despite having a "flexible hours" temporary job in the UK, and has no return ticket at the moment. Their plan is to tell the "truth", just nominating the actual driver at the NIP form and giving his "current" address and then see what happens: since the driver himself doesn't know at present when he is back, how can his friend know? (The travel plans will certainly not clarify until after the deadline.)

Any comments please? Is there any "catch" in playing the above plan? Thanks.
firefly
QUOTE (johnsmith2006)
Any comments please? Is there any "catch" in playing the above plan? Thanks.

No, although be prepared for plod to write and ask for additional information.  They may well ask for flight details or insurance cover etc.

Oh, and I've moved this to a more appropriate place.
johnsmith2006
QUOTE
No, although be prepared for plod to write and ask for additional information.  They may well ask for flight details or insurance cover etc.

Thanks.  The driver actually has a "regular" address in the UK, although his "permanent" (depends on the definition!) address is kind of overseas, where he has (kind of) gone at the moment, one can suspect for Christmas, but he certainly wouldn't have a flight booked back to the UK by the deadline.

So just filling the form with current overseas address with no accompanying note?
firefly
QUOTE (johnsmith2006)
So just filling the form with current overseas address with no accompanying note?

If he was the driver at the time, then yes.  I have no reason to doubt your story, but be warned that if your mate is telling porkies about his other mate driving and is nabbed then he could be in big trouble.

If a foreign driver is nominated then I'm 99% certain they'll be much more diligent in examining the photographic evidence to see if he's telling the truth.  They may not be able to tell much from it but just make sure he's 100% sure of the driver.
Chessman5
QUOTE (firefly)
be prepared for plod to write and ask for additional information.  They may well ask for flight details or insurance cover etc.


They might, but you are under no legal obligation to give any such information. To comply with S.172, you must give the name and address of the driver. So give the name and address of the driver, within the 28 days. If he/she lives in China, or Equador, that's where he/she lives. That's all. It's then up to them to prosecute, or not.

If anyone at the camera office asks for any additional information, tell them poliely to f*** off. You don't have to give any. By law.
johnsmith2006
QUOTE (firefly)
If he was the driver at the time, then yes.  I have no reason to doubt your story, but be warned that if your mate is telling porkies about his other mate driving and is nabbed then he could be in big trouble.

If a foreign driver is nominated then I'm 99% certain they'll be much more diligent in examining the photographic evidence to see if he's telling the truth.  They may not be able to tell much from it but just make sure he's 100% sure of the driver.


Yes, 100% sure: the mate is actually seen through the back window  sitting on the back with another passenger, with the "other mate" surely driving.

QUOTE (Chessman5)
If anyone at the camera office asks for any additional information, tell them poliely to f*** off. You don't have to give any. By law..


If the actual driver suddenly returns to the UK after the return of the NIP, and even (God forbid) shares the same address with the registered keeper, not sure if the "telling them politely f**k off" strategy is still adequate?  smile.gif
Chessman5
QUOTE (johnsmith2006)
If the actual driver suddenly returns to the UK after the return of the NIP, and even (God forbid) shares the same address with the registered keeper, not sure if the "telling them politely f**k off" strategy is still adequate?  :)


Well, the point is you comply fully with the requirements of S.172, and no more. You can safely ignore any subsequent requests for extra information. There is no legal requirement to give any more than the name and address of the driver. If you are telling the truth about the ID of the driver you have nothing to worry about. If the scammers try to bully you, ignore them.

You can't be prosecuted for anything unless they can somehow prove, with evidence, that the driver was someone other than the person you claim it to be. This is not going to happen, is it?

icon_wink.gif
JohnnyBGood
This is a potentially dangourous situation as they could choose to follow up this case and locate the named driver. Then again they may not this supposed ex-copper admites to being naughty -

[forum link]

he claims that only the name and address is required and any other information is not for you to give. They can ask for insuance and flight details but it seems that you are in no way required to give them. Best to check first though and be very careful icon_wink.gif
Chessman5
QUOTE (JohnnyBGood)
...he claims that only the name and address is required and any other information is not for you to give. They can ask for insuance and flight details but it seems that you are in no way required to give them. Best to check first though and be very careful icon_wink.gif


Yes - whatever the ID of the individual in this forum, ex-cop or not, what he says is absolutely true. Read S.172 in the 1988 Act carefully. That's exactly what it says, and that's exactly the legal position. Anything further from the scammers is just bullying, and outside the requirements of Law. It's up to them to prosecute the named driver, wherever he/she lives.
JohnnyBGood
If that's the case and you agree then the
'we will ask you for the drivers insurance details and/or flight details'
detailed on the advice sheet that comes with my local's NIP's should read
"we will ask you questions so that you can incriminate yourself and we will then take you to court and use you answers as evidence against you"
guest006
Hi, I'm the foreign national who was away from the country and is indeed rather sure that it was him driving the car (there's always some room for reasonable doubt though).

Here's what happened: they indeed sent an NIP to my non-UK address, while I was there, BUT
- It arrived 31 day after the posting date
- By that time I was already in the UK,
- Being forwarded to my address in the UK the NIP was delivered already in 42 days (totally-- goes back faster ;! ),
- I do have all possible proofs of delivery dates and that I was out of the country-- passport stamps, boarding passes, etc.
- It's almost 4 months now since the offence...

What are my options?
What happens if I just ignore it?
Thanks.
g_attrill
It depends on what the ticket office office does - if they are satisfied that the nominated driver is genuine then they may either scrap the ticket OR send the file for prosecution, where it may either proceed or be dropped. They migth either issue a summons to the foreign address or the UK address if they now know it. I am not sure about the specifics of them prosecution a person in another country, I don't think it happens very often.

If they don't believe them then they might prosecute for failing to identify the driver. This would be ideal because if it came to court after the 6 month limit then you could appear in court and confirm that you were the driver and even confirmed it.

One snag is that your NIP will be sent back after the 28 day deadline, but if you have proof of the delay or can give evidence about the delays then you should be ok (but nothing is guaranteed in a mag's court!)

As for what to send back - well the PACE letter is an option.

Gareth
Insider
Foreign Driver.....

It's slightly strange considering both yourself and the original poster share the same IP Address range (private allocated range too) and posted from the same physical location....

Are you being bad lads, or being honest about the situation.

and

QUOTE
Hi, I'm the foreign national who was away from the country and is indeed rather sure that it was him driving the car (there's always some room for reasonable doubt though).


So are you now telling us that it wasn't you driving the vehicle and your mate has nominated you anyway?
guest006
QUOTE (Insider @ Sat, 11 Feb 2006 - 07:49) *
It's slightly strange considering both yourself and the original poster share the same IP Address range (private allocated range too) and posted from the same physical location....

Are you being bad lads, or being honest about the situation.


Well, I don't really see why it raises suspicion, since the original poster is my friend and also a colleague. Moreover, why would I make something up if I need a good relevant advice. The situation is described absolutely honestly.


QUOTE (Insider @ Sat, 11 Feb 2006 - 07:49) *
So are you now telling us that it wasn't you driving the vehicle and your mate has nominated you anyway?


Misunderstanding again, I didn't mean that. I meant that reasonable doubt can lead one say to an idea of some action to get 100% sure. Like requesting photos, myself this time. I believe I do have right to do that,..

What would you recommend?
Insider
Glad to hear it, as telling porkies can end in an uncomfortable meeting with Bubba ™ and the police are pretty hot with people nominating foreign drivers.

Request away, you clearly feel the need to confirm that it was you driving and you should really be 100% you were driving before nominating yourself, and your last post seemed to say that you were pretty sure you weren't driving (hence the post & my confusion)

If you don't tell fib's you cant be done for telling them wink.gif
g_attrill
QUOTE (Insider @ Sat, 11 Feb 2006 - 07:49) *
QUOTE
Hi, I'm the foreign national who was away from the country and is indeed rather sure that it was him driving the car (there's always some room for reasonable doubt though).


So are you now telling us that it wasn't you driving the vehicle and your mate has nominated you anyway?


Yes, the change of grammatical person did confuse me too!
guest006
QUOTE (g_attrill @ Sun, 12 Feb 2006 - 02:35) *
Yes, the change of grammatical person did confuse me too!


QUOTE (Insider @ Sun, 12 Feb 2006 - 02:07) *
Request away, you clearly feel the need to confirm that it was you driving and you should really be 100% you were driving before nominating yourself, and your last post seemed to say that you were pretty sure you weren't driving (hence the post & my confusion)

If you don't tell fib's you cant be done for telling them


Well, thanks. Sorry for my english.
Obviously I have no intention of telling fibs and I am ready to nominate myself (when I'm 100%sure, not 99% wink.gif and go all the way with the procedure if it is still required-- see the above delivery time: as I heard I can ignore the NIP if it is not delivered within 21 days, right?
andy_foster
QUOTE (guest006 @ Sun, 12 Feb 2006 - 12:42) *
...as I heard I can ignore the NIP if it is not delivered within 21 days, right?


You heard wrong.
The correct information is in the "READ THIS FIRST" post.
The Rookie
My interprtataion is you have 28 days from RECIEVING the S172 to reply, so it would probably be best to fill it out and send it back special delivery on the 26th day, it may be conveniant to write (in a different pen) 'recieved on' followed by the true date...also keep a photocopy! You will also need to tell them of your current address as its different to the sent to address.

By the time they reply you will be tantalisingly close to a timeout!

Simon
guest006
Many thanks for useful suggestions (though somitemes contradicting each other). Just to double check with a couple of points (re-iterating again that the story above IS genuine, i.e. no "porkies" told).

1. First, the NIP served to my foreign address arrived there TWO DAYS AFTER THE DEADLINE for the specified response, and there is a date stamp on the envelope proving this. Can I get a line of defense out of this, hence ignoring the letter? - How could I possibly comply with what the NIP literally required, i.e. to respond by "the day before yesterday"?
(important to remember that the offence happened almost FOUR MONTHS ago..)

2. If "ignoring" is no good, is it safe to wait for some more time or I should respond immediately? Their letter got to the overseas address for exactly one month (30 days vs 28 given for response!), it was sent to me to the UK next day, but there's no stampt of the delivery date on the return envelope back here..

3. If and when responding, is it still safe to ask for photos, or better to return the NIP admitting me driving? (The keeper did request photos after which he nominated myself, means he is "sure", although it doesn't mean I am at the moment sure too, does it? neither that I had been also given an option of carefully examining the photos..)

4. IS PACE statement an appropriate option in this case? What exactly is likely to happen if I go this way?

Many thanks in advance.
andy_foster
S.172(7)(a) RTA 1988 requires that the information be provided within 28 days of the requirement being served.
S.172(7)(b) provides that failure to comply with the 28 days is not an offence if you can show that it was not reasonably practicable to do so, and that the information was provided as soon as was reasonably practicable afterwards.
patdavies
It seems a pity that the NIP was forwarded from the overseas address
guest006
Here's what happened:

I requested the photos. They were sent to me along with an NIP and a note that "photographic evidence may not necessarily indentify the driver..." and (!) "...the time limit indicated on the form is still in effect and is not extended by correspondence". Three days later I received another NIP regarding the same offence. So, both require me to provide details of a driver etc within 28 days of "notice issue date". Since those dates are different I should forget about the first and have in mind only the "last" one, right? Of course that would already extend the time limit set in the first NIP...

About the photos-- yes, I do recognise myself driving the car at the moment of offence.

It is only about a month left till the "6 months deadline" and about a week to reply to the NIP(s), what options do I have? PACE? What are the consequences? Should I be ready to go to court then?

Any alternatives to PACE or fill-and-sign the NIP?

Thanks in advance
MrsMiggins
Work out the dates precisely. If you return the NIP just in time and they then issue a Conditional Offer the same day giving you 28 days to respond does that take you past the timeout deadline? If it does, then return the NIP just in time.

If it doesn't, are we talking days or weeks inside the deadline?
guest006
QUOTE (MrsMiggins @ Thu, 23 Mar 2006 - 20:37) *
Work out the dates precisely. If you return the NIP just in time and they then issue a Conditional Offer the same day giving you 28 days to respond does that take you past the timeout deadline? If it does, then return the NIP just in time.

If it doesn't, are we talking days or weeks inside the deadline?



A conditional offer was attached to all the NIPs I received...

In fact it is precisely a month till the 6 months deadline, and I have 5 days to reply to the NIP
kuki
Hi Quest, Can you state what was the final outcome of your case (for the benefit of others) ? thanks.
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