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FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
white23
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - March 2014
Date of the NIP: - 0 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 1 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - On 27/03/2014 at 01.41 location M5 Motorway Southbound btw juntion 5 and 6 (AS), UNITED KINGDOM
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Owner/Keeper
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I was returning to South Wales from the Liverpool v Sunderland match late on Wednesday going into Thursday. Traffic was a nightmare and there was lots of motorway maintenance work being undertaken on various points throughout the route (4 or 5 areas in the journey so it wasn't a bolt from the blue). It was not the typical "quiet night only car on the road" scenario and there were lots of vehicles slowing into 50mph zones through work zones and then picking back up. At no time was I ever quicker then the general flow of traffic and I don't believe I was speeding at 64 in a temporary 50 zone.

the offence states: "The driver of *my vehicle* did commit the alleged offence of Exceed a temporary 50pmh restriction on a motorway - automatic camera device"

Its a green sect 172 form from West Mercia Police and also a green doubled sided form with conditional fpn on one side and a speed awareness course form on the other.

I know that I have zero points but a £100 penalty is outrageous especially considering I wasn't even exceeding the actual road speed limit of 70mph. I went on a speed awareness course in 2010 so I imagine I am eligible for that.

If I write to them saying "I don't believe I was speeding can you provide evidence" or "I don't believe the temporary speed restriction markings were adequately shown" and they can't show evidence, do they drop it? If they can am I worse off? Am I better off just taking the speed awareness course if I get offered it?

This just bites because its a clear 'cash cow' and I got a parking ticket in Liverpool too so this has rounded off a painful couple of days..

All advice gratefully received...

Thanks guys


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 15:18:25 +0000
peterguk
The road speed at the time and the place was not 70, but 50. So no defence there. Other cars driving at the same speed as you is also no defence. They may well get thir own NIPs.

They won't just drop it because you challenge it. If offered one, either accept the SAC, or take the matter to court.

You can ask for "photos to assist in identification of the driver", but remember they are provided to identify the car, not prove the offence. Asking for photos does not stop the 28 day clock to return the S.172.
white23
Sorry if it wasn't clear, I was going to include the sect 172 form and staple it to a letter. I wasn't going to specifically say photo as I'm admitting being the driver (seems daft to pretend to not remember two days later) but I'd read that you can say "I definitely wasn't speeding" and they would provide you with the proof ie pic from the camera to say "yes you were clocked here is proof" - is that not the case? What about the restriction not being properly marked out because (as I mention) there were lots of road works and I slowed down/took notice of all the others - it just seems odd, I do actually generally drive pretty reasonably on motorways..
mrh3369
They do not have to provide you with any proof, evidence is not disclosed until you have plead not guilty are are summonsed to court.
Jlc
They do not have to provide proof unless you opt for a court hearing and plead not guilty.

If you do not admit to the speeding then it is your right to do this. However, if you reject the fixed penalty (or course) then the 3 points/£100 is lost and you will be sentenced based on your income, along with costs and a surcharge should you be found guilty.
Logician
They need not and will not provide any evidence unless you choose to take the matter to court, so the only way you will get any photographs is to say you want them to assist in identifying the driver, as peteruk says above. If you go to court and challenge them on the signage they are likely to simply provide a certificate from the contractor saying that everything was in order, so effectively you have to prove it was not, which you can only really do by going back there and taking some pictures. One aspect that sometimes goes wrong is that if the signs were within 50 metres of a street light they should have been illuminated. The only other line to follow is to ask the Highways Agency to see the temporary Traffic Regulation Order reducing the limit for the roadworks, and check that it covered the place and time stated on the NIP.
white23
ok thanks, so its a risk then i.e. you let yourself get the summons and then "BINGO" theres a picture of you smiling at 64 and you're knackered.

Maybe this is outdated but didn't there used to be a timescale that was maluable - something along the lines of waiting for a follow on the basis of creating a 6 month gap between NIP and summons rendering things invalid, or is that no longer the case. I can't remember the exact details but it was something along the lines of sending the sect 172 so you've confirmed ID of the driver but then ignoring a follow up and waiting for them to chase you?

Apologies if I'm niaive here..

I'm just feeling rather annoyed with it, and would (if possible) want to be awkward without putting myself in danger... it seems like defeat to just roll over and give them £100.

PS thank you 3 guys for your input... biggrin.gif
Jlc
Yes, they have 6 months to prosecute - but it's extremely rare to get a 'time out'.

Admitting being the driver is not admitting to the offence. However, they will send a conditional offer to dispose of the matter without court. Should you not accept this then a court hearing is almost inevitable.

It is almost certain you were clocked at the given speed between 2 of the gantries - so unless you have something concrete it would be an expensive gamble.
James P
It seems again I find the same situation in this forum regarding the temporary speed limit signs on the M5. There is definitely something wrong here as this many people can't all be not seeing something that is apparently there.

Exactly the same has just happened to me but between junctions 10 and 11. It was 10:30 p.m. at night, it was almost pitch black on this stretch of motorway, no roadside lighting, if there usually is then it may have been due to the road works as to why it was so dark, my headlights sure didn't show any temp speed signs... possibly badly positioned, I don't know. So either there were no signs to indicate the 50mph temp speed limit or they were somehow not visible as I know I did not see any, I have been checking my senses over and over again in case I'm going mad and no, I know I did not see any signs. Don't the authorities look at the figures and ask 'something's not quite right here'? Or do they just keep counting the pounds piling up?

I was 'caught' doing 70mph (because I thought that was the motorway speed limit) in a 50mph temp speed zone. I know myself and I know that if I'd had adequate information provided to me by the road authorities regarding the speed limit that in no way would I have exceeded 50mph. All this has taught me is that any one of us at any time can fall victim to this disgrace. I have received the NIP and it came as a shock, a complete surprise. They have now been informed as to who the driver was, and now I'm just waiting for what happens next, and actually I have no idea what is going to happen next. I'm furious as well as pretty damn disappointed in this dishonest (dishonest because I am convinced that this is money making and the motorist is the victim), highly fallible system of monitoring "speeding" motorists.
The Rookie
Please start your own thread as all cases are different.

A regular user of the motorway has posted on here claiming to be at a loss as to how people can miss what he considers is very obvious roadworks and signs.

That said it is his first ever post which would make one question how he came to be here, however only 3 posters in 6 months suggests most people have seen the limit or we would have many more.

If you think the signage is inadequate you need to get photo's ASAP and see if it is indeed not enforceable.
mrh3369
I'm a Gloucestershire resident and drive through the roadworks several times a week and they are indeed well marked with compliant signage, not really that easy to miss in my opinion, the section between 10-11 is however only a short stretch so perhaps easier to miss unlike the stretch between 11a & 12 which is several miles long.
James P
Thanks mrh339, and The Rookie, I'm new and just getting the hang of the forum sorry about not starting a new post. Mind you the section I was 'caught' on at the time I was there it was in pitch blackness and I saw no signs for a temp speed of 50mph, of course they may have been there but they weren't visible.
mrh3369
They are indeed there as are warning signs before you get there.
mrh3369
Duplicate
homeruk
I also use the m6 between j10 and 11 a lot and they are lots of signs before and during the roadworks and this includes at night.

At 70 you must of been whizzing past everybody else did you not find it strange that everybody else was going so slowly?
valleyboy
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 2 Sep 2014 - 13:09) *
Please start your own thread as all cases are different.

A regular user of the motorway has posted on here claiming to be at a loss as to how people can miss what he considers is very obvious roadworks and signs.

That said it is his first ever post which would make one question how he came to be here, however only 3 posters in 6 months suggests most people have seen the limit or we would have many more.

If you think the signage is inadequate you need to get photo's ASAP and see if it is indeed not enforceable.



Hi I am that user, and yes it was my first post though I've been lurking for quite some time.

I posted as I trundle up and down the M5 every week. It's signs, cones, plant machinery narrowed lanes, and specs cameras abound on that section
James P
Actually homeruk I wasn't whizzing past anybody, if anything the traffic was all pretty much traveling along at roughly the same speed. Enough members of this forum have kindly pointed out to me that the roadworks are well signed with temp 50mph speed signs. The stretch between junction 10 and 11 is where I got caught and is short by comparison and in thee pitch dark, as it was, i know as I was there, there were no visible signs and all the traffic started to speed up, so I wasn't the only one to make the mistake. The system needs to be addressed because people like you and I can get done for speeding for no more than 6 or 7 seconds in years of driving, people like me are not speeding nit-wits who whizz around all of the time. One mistake in 30 years of driving.
StationCat
QUOTE (James P @ Tue, 2 Sep 2014 - 13:03) *
It seems again I find the same situation in this forum regarding the temporary speed limit signs on the M5. There is definitely something wrong here as this many people can't all be not seeing something that is apparently there.

Exactly the same has just happened to me but between junctions 10 and 11. It was 10:30 p.m. at night, it was almost pitch black on this stretch of motorway, no roadside lighting, if there usually is then it may have been due to the road works as to why it was so dark, my headlights sure didn't show any temp speed signs... possibly badly positioned, I don't know. So either there were no signs to indicate the 50mph temp speed limit or they were somehow not visible as I know I did not see any, I have been checking my senses over and over again in case I'm going mad and no, I know I did not see any signs. Don't the authorities look at the figures and ask 'something's not quite right here'? Or do they just keep counting the pounds piling up?

I was 'caught' doing 70mph (because I thought that was the motorway speed limit) in a 50mph temp speed zone. I know myself and I know that if I'd had adequate information provided to me by the road authorities regarding the speed limit that in no way would I have exceeded 50mph. All this has taught me is that any one of us at any time can fall victim to this disgrace....


Actually, only those motorists who are exceeding the posted speed limit can be victims (or to give it the correct technical term - offenders)

QUOTE (James P @ Tue, 2 Sep 2014 - 13:03) *
I have received the NIP and it came as a shock, a complete surprise. They have now been informed as to who the driver was, and now I'm just waiting for what happens next, and actually I have no idea what is going to happen next. I'm furious as well as pretty damn disappointed in this dishonest (dishonest because I am convinced that this is money making and the motorist is the victim), highly fallible system of monitoring "speeding" motorists.


Since there are advanced warning signs of the roadworks, 50 mph terminal signs, 50 mph repeaters with average speed camera signs at the required intervals and bright yellow lamp-posts with bright yellow cameras on top, I'm not sure how this is 'dishonest'. It is also clearly not fallible since it caught you...and you were speeding.
sgtdixie
6 seconds at 70 mph is 210 yards. A very short limit for average speed cameras!
mrh3369
Whilst I'm not sure of the exact distances it is the shortest average speed zone that I have ever seen on a motorway.
BaggieBoy
The camera pairs are 1.6KM apart.
sgtdixie
QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Tue, 2 Sep 2014 - 19:49) *
The camera pairs are 1.6KM apart.

So a bit longer than 6 or 7 seconds then.
The Rookie
Indeed about 800-900% longer.......
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