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rossi14
Hello,

this morning I had an osteopathic treatment at 8:00. I parked the car on a street nearby where the parking is free till 9:00. The treatment took longer than usual so I returned to my car at 19:15. The CEO was still there (time of contravention: 9:12) and could confirm that since I spoke to him. Is there anything I can do about that?
DancingDad
Post up the PCN wiithout personal details and we'll have a look
rossi14

DancingDad
Sorry, all the PCN, front and back please.
Seems pedantic but the devil is in the detail.
Bottom line, they got you bang to rights so we need to find the loopholes. Which we will try so don't give up.
rossi14
I've updated the images.
Neil B
See if you can find their stated policy re dealing with mitigating circumstances.

Parking Enforcement Policy - or similar title - start at website.
Mad Mick V
The date of service and the time of contravention are shown on the payment slip but this might not be a feasible ground for appeal.

The appeal regs stuff is rather loose:-

(2) A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information—

(a)that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and

(b)that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—

(i)those representations will be considered;

(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.


Mick
rossi14
Do you mean I just have to pay?
DancingDad
Considerations and Form and Manner are on the PCN although not in exact words.

Hippo has a challenge on not later then last day wording but not sure I'm fully understanding the detail in that.

However...going back to our old friend Barnet V Parking Adjudicators. Date Served or Notice is not on the PCN and being on the payment slip is not good enough.

Back to Rossi. You say the treatment took longer then usual ? From that I assume that it's regular treatment ? How long normally ? We are all familiar with delays for treatment but, for sake of argument, if the delay was unexpected, that helps in mitigation so needs some detail on normal expectation and how often (not what though medical details will help when you put in your first informal reps.

BTW, what we have at moment does mean you have a chance of winning this but may mean a long haul to adjudication.

QUOTE (rossi14 @ Tue, 25 Mar 2014 - 11:03) *
Do you mean I just have to pay?


NO...let us develop the arguements but at the moment, can't see why you should have to
Neil B
date served and time ARE both on the PCN ???

Not sure what you mean about "notice" DD?
rossi14
I've been receiving treatments for the last month. The first 2/3 times I paid the parking ticket because I didn't know how long the treatment was going to last. Since it was taking less than one hour I haven't paid anymore. My bad...
Neil B
QUOTE (rossi14 @ Tue, 25 Mar 2014 - 11:23) *
I've been receiving treatments for the last month. The first 2/3 times I paid the parking ticket because I didn't know how long the treatment was going to last. Since it was taking less than one hour I haven't paid anymore. My bad...

Do you mean you paid for P&D on previous occasions?
DancingDad
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 25 Mar 2014 - 11:15) *
date served and time ARE both on the PCN ???

Not sure what you mean about "notice" DD?



Bu&&er...got to get new glasses. Apologies for misleading.
rossi14
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 25 Mar 2014 - 11:25) *
QUOTE (rossi14 @ Tue, 25 Mar 2014 - 11:23) *
I've been receiving treatments for the last month. The first 2/3 times I paid the parking ticket because I didn't know how long the treatment was going to last. Since it was taking less than one hour I haven't paid anymore. My bad...

Do you mean you paid for P&D on previous occasions?


Yes I did but I've returned before 9:00. The P&D I paid was from 9:00 to 9:30.
Mad Mick V
There have to be two dates on the PCN --date of notice and date of service as per the legislation.

Contents of a penalty charge notice served under regulation 9

1. A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it by regulation 3(2) of the Representations and Appeals Regulations, state—

(a)the date on which the notice is served;


(b)the name of the enforcement authority;

©the registration mark of the vehicle involved in the alleged contravention;

(d)the date and the time at which the alleged contravention occurred;

(e)the grounds on which the civil enforcement officer serving the notice believes that a penalty charge is payable;

(f)the amount of the penalty charge;

(g)that the penalty charge must be paid not later than the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the penalty charge notice was served;

(h)that if the penalty charge is paid not later than the last day of the period of 14 days beginning with the date on which the notice is served, the penalty charge will be reduced by the amount of any applicable discount;

(i)the manner in which the penalty charge must be paid; and

(j)that if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the period of 28 days referred to in subparagraph (g), a notice to owner may be served by the enforcement authority on the owner of the vehicle.

The date of service is not in the main body of the PCN but on the payment slip.

So the validity of the PCN is in question; is it:-

Compliant because it has to be "read as a whole" as per Hackney Drivers?

Non-Compliant because the payment slip is not part of the PCN?

In R (Barnet) v The Parking Adjudicator, CO/3355/2006, (judgment 2 August 2006), Mr. Justice Jackson, upholding the decisions of the parking adjudicator, held amongst other things:
"The Penalty Charge Notice in this case does not state the date of the notice (paragraph 36 of his judgment). The date is shown only on the payment slip. Mr. Justice Jackson cited with approval the reasoning of the Adjudicators in Al's Bar & Restaurant v Wandsworth (PATAS Case No. 2020106430, 28 October 2002) and Macarthur v Bury (NPAS Case No. BC188, 4 April 2005) that the payment slip is not part of the Penalty Charge Notice and therefore for the date of the notice to appear only on the payment slip does not comply with the requirement for the Penalty Charge Notice itself to state the date. The Penalty Charge Notice in this case is therefore invalid and unenforceable. I must accordingly allow this appeal."


Mick
DancingDad
Sorry Mick...Served on as at top of PCN will be taken as substancially compliant
Mad Mick V
Bu&&er me where did you go for those glasses?

M
DancingDad
QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Tue, 25 Mar 2014 - 12:54) *
Bu&&er me where did you go for those glasses?

M


No good going to my opticians.... I missed it as well biggrin.gif
Neil B
QUOTE (rossi14 @ Tue, 25 Mar 2014 - 12:07) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 25 Mar 2014 - 11:25) *
QUOTE (rossi14 @ Tue, 25 Mar 2014 - 11:23) *
I've been receiving treatments for the last month. The first 2/3 times I paid the parking ticket because I didn't know how long the treatment was going to last. Since it was taking less than one hour I haven't paid anymore. My bad...

Do you mean you paid for P&D on previous occasions?


Yes I did but I've returned before 9:00. The P&D I paid was from 9:00 to 9:30.

Well I defer to others' opinions on this but that sounds like a start in terms of pleading for some discretion to be exercised. Anyone?

Do you still have the previous p&d tickets?
DancingDad
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 25 Mar 2014 - 13:43) *
...........Well I defer to others' opinions on this but that sounds like a start in terms of pleading for some discretion to be exercised. Anyone?

Do you still have the previous p&d tickets?


Absolutely

Rgular treatment. Previous history that appointment would be less then an hour so expectation that P&D would not be required. Had previously paid but having found there was no need, did not expect to need to this time.
Be very nice if time of previous appointments was significantly less then an hour but do not tell lies..if they were 50 minutes and you hoped to get away with it again, just be stick to less then an hour.
rossi14
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 25 Mar 2014 - 13:43) *
QUOTE (rossi14 @ Tue, 25 Mar 2014 - 12:07) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 25 Mar 2014 - 11:25) *
QUOTE (rossi14 @ Tue, 25 Mar 2014 - 11:23) *
I've been receiving treatments for the last month. The first 2/3 times I paid the parking ticket because I didn't know how long the treatment was going to last. Since it was taking less than one hour I haven't paid anymore. My bad...

Do you mean you paid for P&D on previous occasions?


Yes I did but I've returned before 9:00. The P&D I paid was from 9:00 to 9:30.

Well I defer to others' opinions on this but that sounds like a start in terms of pleading for some discretion to be exercised. Anyone?

Do you still have the previous p&d tickets?


I may have one or two left in the car...
Neil B
I think you might also find that your clinic can corroborate the timings of each appointment - the good and the bad.
Mine keeps computer records of when everyone arrives, gets seen and when the consultation ends.

Sometimes, if you go to the trouble of presenting a few bits of evidence a Council will see that you are genuine and you feel strongly that you have a case.

Ultimately, to offer such evidence early would help garner sympathy from an Adjudicator, if we find reason to go that far.
rossi14
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 25 Mar 2014 - 15:00) *
I think you might also find that your clinic can corroborate the timings of each appointment - the good and the bad.
Mine keeps computer records of when everyone arrives, gets seen and when the consultation ends.

Sometimes, if you go to the trouble of presenting a few bits of evidence a Council will see that you are genuine and you feel strongly that you have a case.

Ultimately, to offer such evidence early would help garner sympathy from an Adjudicator, if we find reason to go that far.


There are no computer records. I have the invoices from the medical insurance company but they just report the day of the treatment.
DancingDad
QUOTE (rossi14 @ Tue, 25 Mar 2014 - 15:04) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 25 Mar 2014 - 15:00) *
I think you might also find that your clinic can corroborate the timings of each appointment - the good and the bad.
Mine keeps computer records of when everyone arrives, gets seen and when the consultation ends.

Sometimes, if you go to the trouble of presenting a few bits of evidence a Council will see that you are genuine and you feel strongly that you have a case.

Ultimately, to offer such evidence early would help garner sympathy from an Adjudicator, if we find reason to go that far.


There are no computer records. I have the invoices from the medical insurance company but they just report the day of the treatment.


Betcha there are records.... however the invoices will be enough for now.
rossi14
Could you explain what I have to write if I choose to make representations?

Do I still get the discount if they reject it?
Incandescent
QUOTE (rossi14 @ Tue, 25 Mar 2014 - 17:15) *
Could you explain what I have to write if I choose to make representations?

Do I still get the discount if they reject it?

Only if you make a representation within the 14 day discount period. This is not a legal requirement on councils, only a concession, but most councils offer the discount again if reps are declined. These representations are what as known as "challenges" in government guidance. Formal appeals are made following receipt of a Notice to Owner, but at this point (over 28 days since the PCN issue), the discount no longer applies. Some councils are getting wise and re-offer the discount even at this late stage to "encourage" the motorist to pay-up to avoid an appeal to the adjudicators, that they may not want.
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