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galthop
Hello all. I have been directed here by a friend for advice about a ticket.

On Thursday 27 Feb I parked in The Range car park at about 11 am. I went directly in to town (not in to the range store). Around 11:40 I arrived back at the car park and went directly in to store and bought a £1 multi pack of crisps. Unfortunately I did not keep the receipt. I then got in my car and drove off. The car was in the car park for less than an hour.

The car park rules state that customers can park for 2 hours.

Yesterday I noticed that a ticket had been stuck to my windscreen - it was over the road tax so I had not noticed it before. The ticket was issued at 11:07 and the reason for issue is 'None Patron'. Obviously I was a patron but I can not prove it. They want £60 within 14 days or £100 within 28 days.

I've attached scans of the ticket.

Is there anything I can do about this?
kirkbyinfurnesslad
send them this:
In the matter of an Appeal against a Parking Charge Notice


Genuine pre-estimate of loss

It is alleged that, the driver of a vehicle, of which I am the Registered Keeper, parked in breach of certain terms and conditions and as such a Parking Charge is now due. As the parking charge arises from an alleged failure to comply with the terms and conditions then this indicates that the parking charge represents damages for a breach of the parking contract. Accordingly, the parking charge must be a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

The Parking Enforcement Company may claim that its charges are in line with the BPA Ltd Code of Practice. Whilst the BPA Ltd CoP states that operator must justify in advance any parking charge over £100, it does not automatically follow that any charge which is £100 or under is justified.

The Parking Enforcement Company may also claim that its charges have been held to be enforceable in other cases but has failed to produce any reasonable evidence to justify this particular parking charge. Losses caused by breaches of a parking contract may vary depending on the nature of the breach and the car park. The fact that a parking charge at a certain level is held not to be a penalty in one area of private land does not mean that the same sum is a pre-estimate of loss caused in every area of private land.

The Parking Enforcement Company may also claim that the charge is justified commercially and so need not in any case be a genuine pre-estimate of loss. If the Parking Enforcement Company’s submission includes costs which in reality amount to the general business costs incurred for the provision of their car park management services then that cannot be commercially justified. The whole business model of a Parking Enforcement Company in respect of a particular parking enforcement operation cannot of itself amount to commercial justification.

It is my assertion therefore that the parking charge is punitive and an unenforceable penalty rather than a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

Lack of sufficient contractual authority

It is my assertion that the Parking Enforcement Company is not lawfully entitled to demand money from the driver. That is to say, that it has the necessary legal capacity to enter into a contract with a driver of a vehicle on this private land.

The Parking Enforcement Company has not been properly appointed as the agent of the landowner or has been properly authorised by the landowner to recover unpaid parking charges from a driver. If the Parking Enforcement Company refutes this then they should provide an un-redacted copy if its contract with the owner of the land and evidence of the land ownership of the party with whom the Parking Enforcement Company has contracted.

In the alternative, if the Parking Enforcement Company is the owner of the land then it should evidence that ownership, if the Parking Enforcement Company is unable or unwilling to do so, then this appeal should be upheld.
ManxRed
Blimey! That ticket's so full of holes you could strain vegetables with it.

No mention of POPLA, or the PoFA at all.

As long as the car is not a lease/hire vehicle then I would wait until the Registered Keeper receives the Notice to Keeper (between 28 and 56 days after the incident.

Then the RK should appeal as the registered keeper, referring to the driver in the third person only (the driver did this, the driver did that, etc.). Under no circumstances name who was driving.

Appeal on the following points:

1. The driver was a customer of the store
2. Care parking have observed the driver leaving site, and failed to mitigate any losses by simply informing the driver that he/she should not do this.
3. The sum sought is not related to any loss suffered by the Range or Care Parking.

Come back here when they inevitably reject this, and we'll take it from there.
galthop
Thank you for the advice.

ManxRed
No problem.

Jlc
Indeed, there doesn't appear to be any advice that an 'independent' appeal service will be available...

I can't find the case right now but I'm sure someone won a court case against a company that didn't make this clear.
Dublindel
So! How do they prove you were not using a store? It would need continuous video to establish that as evidence, so two words, PROVE IT. And no POPLA details.... oh dear!! It's like a train setting off on its journey but forgot to lay any tracks.
katerinababa
I would love to know how you get with this...I've just started a new topic, and it gives me hope that ManxRed considers the PCN to be rubbish!

I'll be keeping a keen eye on this biggrin.gif
galthop
A demand has arrived, please advise on what I should do now.

Click to view attachment

Are there any template letters I can use to reply to this?

Thanks for reading.
nmonster
http://www.parking-prankster.com/the-range.html
ManxRed
So, underneath the 'How To Pay' bit they are inviting you, the registered keeper, to challenge the charge.

As per post #3, challenge as the registered keeper, do not say who was driving, refer to the driver as 'the driver' if you need to.

Challenge on the following points:

1. The driver was a customer of the store
2. Care parking have observed the driver leaving site, and failed to mitigate any losses by simply informing the driver that he/she should not do this.
3. The sum sought is not related to any loss suffered by the Range or Care Parking.

Then come back when they inevitably (and foolishly) reject this challenge.
Jlc
What is also interesting is the £50 'escalator' that the PoFA doesn't recognise as only the amount of the NtK is formally claimable. An extra £50 doesn't sound like their actual costs to me anyway...
jammster65
i would also ask why there representative who obv saw you walking away from the vehilcl and the site did not stop you and advise you about the charges you may be liable to ,it is up to there operative to minimise the losses you may incurr ,
ManxRed
That's point #2 in the appeal points I've suggested above. To the OP - VCS v Ibbotsen is a case reference for this point (about leaving site).
galthop
Thank you all for the advice. I will send off this letter challenging the charge:

Regarding: PCN, Car, Keeper details

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am the registered keeper of this vehicle.

I wish to challenge this PCN on the following points:

1. The driver was a customer of the store.
2. Care parking have observed the driver leaving site, and failed to mitigate any losses by simply informing the driver that they should not leave the site.
3. The sum sought is not related to any loss suffered by the Range or Care Parking.


Is this ok or do I need anything more?
ManxRed
That should do it for now. Although you could finish off by saying 'Either accept this appeal and cancel the ticket, or send a POPLA code with your rejection so I can take the matter up with the independent appeals body'.
bama
seconded
galthop
Thanks again everyone. I sent the letter off yesterday.
galthop
I finally got the rejection of my appeal - see the attachments.

In it they give a link to photographic evidence which shows the car parked in the car park, which on one is denying. The pictures do not show any people.

The letter also says 'The driver was observed leaving the site with a male'. This was not the case as the driver was alone.

Please advise what I should do next.


Jlc
QUOTE (galthop @ Wed, 11 Jun 2014 - 12:50) *
Please advise what I should do next.

You have the POPLA code, use it. The letter says 'in contravention' which is clearly a breach of contract - therefore, they will have to convince POPLA that the charge is a genuine pre-estimate of loss. Also, throw in that you were a patron.
The Rookie
If you assert at POPLA you were a patron of the store, they have to prove (to the same burden) you weren't.....which they can't.
galthop
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 11 Jun 2014 - 15:05) *
If you assert at POPLA you were a patron of the store, they have to prove (to the same burden) you weren't.....which they can't.


Thanks, but will it matter that I have no proof of the driver being a patron? Also, the driver did leave the car park though their photos don't show this.
kommando
Once you assert you do not need proof, they need to disprove. Leaving the car park but also being a patron is not a crime, just browsing makes you a patron.
galthop
QUOTE (kommando @ Thu, 12 Jun 2014 - 10:19) *
Once you assert you do not need proof, they need to disprove. Leaving the car park but also being a patron is not a crime, just browsing makes you a patron.

Do I need to worry about the fact that their sign says you can not leave the car park/shop when the driver did leave?
ManxRed
That aspect can be countered by the fact that the parking company have a duty of care to mitigate their losses, and if this means that their loss would have been lowered if the warden saw the driver walk off site, and had an opportunity to warn him not to do so, and he failed to do that, then they have failed to mitigate their loss. Not that there was any loss caused by the driver walking off site anyway, but still, the fact remains that they have failed to mitigate their potential loss.

There is an amusing court case VCS v Ibbotsen which you can Google which amusingly deals with that very point. VCS got their backside handed to them on a plate over this very issue.
galthop
I appealed online with this:

Why they are appealing:
Parked improperly

Appeal reasons:
Care parking say I was a 'None Patron'. The fact is that I was a patron of the store. I bought a multi pack of crisps. Unfortunately I did not keep the receipt. The care parking warden observed me leaving site, and failed to mitigate any losses by simply informing the me that I should not do this.


Today I got an email result:

Me (Appellant)
-v-
Anchor Security Services Ltd t/as Care Parking (Operator)
The Operator issued parking charge notice number XXXXXX arising out of a presence on private land, of a vehicle with registration mark XXXXXX.
The Appellant appealed against liability for the parking charge.
The Assessor has considered the evidence of both parties and has determined that the appeal be allowed.
The Assessor’s reasons are as set out.
The Operator should now cancel the parking charge notice forthwith.

Reasons for the Assessor’s Determination
It is the Appellant’s case that the parking charge notice was issued incorrectly.
The Operator has not produced a copy of the parking charge notice, nor any evidence to show a breach of the conditions of parking occurred, nor any evidence that shows what the conditions of parking, in fact, were.
Accordingly I have no option but to allow the appeal.

Thank you all for your help.
ManxRed
Ohhhh....kayyyyyy.....

That appeal was a bit light (although not incorrect), and if you'd asked for advice before sending it we would probably have advised you to pad it out a bit with points relating to the fact that the loss suffered was zero, and that Care Parking in all likelihood had no legal standing on the land, BUT....

...they still chickened out, and you won!

Well done. This has certainly made me smile today!
Jlc
Silence is golden.
galthop
Do I need to contact care parking now to get them to cancel the charge or do they do it automatically?
Jlc
QUOTE (galthop @ Wed, 6 Aug 2014 - 11:34) *
Do I need to contact care parking now to get them to cancel the charge or do they do it automatically?

Do nothing...

They might send you an apology - or perhaps confirmation. Or just nothing...
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