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ASHY111
Hi All,

Firstly I'm new to this site and hope you can help me pls.

We travel to Scotland a few times a week and the other day got a letter via post to say speeding on the
A74 (M) M74 .Northbound Abingdon near Junction 13.

"In accordance with section 1 of the road traffic offenders act 1988, I nearby give you notice that is is intended
to institute proceedings against the driver of the above motor vehicle for the following alleged offence "

Basically doing 86 mph on motorway.
Letter dated on the 27/01/14

(I think the police van was on the bridge)

I don't know who was the driver as we change drivers whilst we stop for breaks as well.

What shall I do ???

Regards
Ashy



Jlc
QUOTE (ASHY111 @ Sat, 1 Feb 2014 - 21:08) *
What shall I do ???

Read this thread of what not to do.

Would 6 points and large fine help you remember? The time will be on the NIP.
fedup2
Decide who was driving and name them on the NIP is the best advice your going to get.

If not your lineing yourself up for 6 points for failing to name them,that may help with your memory smile.gif
ASHY111
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - January 2014
Date of the NIP: - 0 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 3 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A74(M)M74 Northbound Abingdon near to Junction 13
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 3
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - R.e above question, I think I have previous 3 points.
Can I check online ?

We go to scotland 3 times a week and have regular breaks and change drivers on way.

I assume the police van on bridge has caught "The Driver" speeding.

Now I dont 't who the driver was at the time.


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Unsure
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sat, 01 Feb 2014 21:27:26 +0000
southpaw82
A court is going to have to be having a very good day to believe that two grown persons can't remember who was driving three days previously. Try harder...
ASHY111
QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 1 Feb 2014 - 21:23) *
QUOTE (ASHY111 @ Sat, 1 Feb 2014 - 21:08) *
What shall I do ???

Read this thread of what not to do.

Would 6 points and large fine help you remember? The time will be on the NIP.



Thanks for the reply guys.

What if I ask for photo evidence and send the form in unsigned and they send back to me etc

Heard there is such a thing as "Timedout"

Also what if I wrote and said I have a clean licence and would like to keep it that way, can I opt to go on a course ?
Kieran_e1
QUOTE (ASHY111 @ Sat, 1 Feb 2014 - 21:49) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 1 Feb 2014 - 21:23) *
QUOTE (ASHY111 @ Sat, 1 Feb 2014 - 21:08) *
What shall I do ???

Read this thread of what not to do.

Would 6 points and large fine help you remember? The time will be on the NIP.



Thanks for the reply guys.

What if I ask for photo evidence and send the form in unsigned and they send back to me etc

Heard there is such a thing as "Timedout"

Also what if I wrote and said I have a clean licence and would like to keep it that way, can I opt to go on a course ?

no courses in scotland, someone much better than I will explained the unsigned thing
Jlc
A 'timeout' is 6 months from the offence. Around an additional 28 days for a s172 offence (naming driver).

More details here but a high risk strategy IMHO.

Points count for totting for 3 years, can be removed at 4 years but insurers often ask for 5 years. You should be aware how many points you have as you should have declared them for insurance purposes.

Asking for photo's would be a good start to assist in the identification. Have you discussed with the other driver?
glasgow_bhoy
QUOTE (ASHY111 @ Sat, 1 Feb 2014 - 21:49) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 1 Feb 2014 - 21:23) *
QUOTE (ASHY111 @ Sat, 1 Feb 2014 - 21:08) *
What shall I do ???

Read this thread of what not to do.

Would 6 points and large fine help you remember? The time will be on the NIP.



Thanks for the reply guys.

What if I ask for photo evidence and send the form in unsigned and they send back to me etc

Heard there is such a thing as "Timedout"

Also what if I wrote and said I have a clean licence and would like to keep it that way, can I opt to go on a course ?

Ask for pics, but ask for them to assist with identification of the driver- not as evidence. They are not obliged to show you pics, so make sure you still nominate a driver within 28 days.

A timeout is basically out the question in this situation. They've got the NIP to you quickly, you have 28 days to return it. They will then respond to you with an offer of 3 points £100 fine. You then have 28 days to accept that. The process will probably be concluded within 3 months tops. A timeout wouldn't take place until 6 months. And if you mess about trying to make it last till 6 months, you'll either have 6 points and a fine for not naming the driver within the alloted 28 days, or you'll have 3 points and a few hundred quid fine for the speeding in court.

The way you've wrote that last post suggests you think you may be the driver, through your use of the word 'I'. If you think it was you who was the driver (bearing in mind it is not an offence to name yourself even if your not certain- just as long as you have reasonable cause to believe it was you its alright to name yourself. As long as your not recklessly furnishing a name you know not to be the driver), you should name yourself. You also mention that you believe the car was pictured by the van 'on the bridge'. This suggests you saw the van- a court would take the view that if you saw the van, you would have remembered whether you were driving when you saw it or not.

Unfortunatly there are no courses in Scotland- they only tend to offer them after crashes as an alternative to careless driving. FYI though, in England, you can take them even if you have existing points- as long as you fall within the threshold speed wise, and haven't done with in the preceding 3 years.

Finally, the unsigned route involves filling in the S172 driver details request, but not signing it. Takes a lot of effort as police will be round your door at all times trying to get you to verbally name the driver, at which point you'd have to cough. This only works in Scotland, and it is highly likely that one day someone will be prosecuted for failing to name the driver in this way. As such, I'd not suggest using it unless your already on 9 points and would be facing a ban either way. No point taking the risk for the sake of 3 points.

Seriously- don't create unnecessary hastle for yourself by not naming the driver. Its seriously not worth it.
fedup2
Speedos are generally about 3mph fast which would put the speedo reading close to 90mph.Were both drivers doing them speeds?
jaykay
The "unsigned" route has had much success in Scotland - I think I'm right in saying no one has yet been prosecuted for failing to name the driver by returning the s172 request unsigned.

Decide who the driver was, and ensure they send the s172 request back as late as possible, everything filled in except the signature.

However if the registered keeper of the car was not the driver, the RK will first have to respond naming the driver. As this form is only nominating the driver it can be signed.

Note it is an extremely serious offence to knowingly name someone who wasn't driving, you could always ask for a photograph to assist with identification.

Timeout takes six months, during which time the local Police have been know to call round to confirm who the driver was.
kinell
The topic would seem to suggest the OP does not live in Scotland - "We travel to Scotland a few times a week". If that is the case then better chance of an unsigned reaching timeout as English plod are less likely to follow up with the diligence of their Scottish counterparts.

I would say, if you travel to Scotland a few times a week then you should know that what used to be Dumfries & Galloway Police use the M74 as one massive cash converter, despite it being one of the quietest motorways in the UK and vans are out somewhere on their stretch of it pretty much daily. Wherever there are camera signs there is very likely to be a scamera van shortly after - and watch out at junctions. Traffic cars like to hide up the slip roads too. ninja.gif
southpaw82
QUOTE (jaykay @ Sat, 1 Feb 2014 - 22:20) *
The "unsigned" route has had much success in Scotland - I think I'm right in saying no one has yet been prosecuted convicted for failing to name the driver by returning the s172 request unsigned.


FTFY.
ASHY111
QUOTE (kinell @ Sat, 1 Feb 2014 - 22:32) *
The topic would seem to suggest the OP does not live in Scotland - "We travel to Scotland a few times a week". If that is the case then better chance of an unsigned reaching timeout as English plod are less likely to follow up with the diligence of their Scottish counterparts.

I would say, if you travel to Scotland a few times a week then you should know that what used to be Dumfries & Galloway Police use the M74 as one massive cash converter, despite it being one of the quietest motorways in the UK and vans are out somewhere on their stretch of it pretty much daily. Wherever there are camera signs there is very likely to be a scamera van shortly after - and watch out at junctions. Traffic cars like to hide up the slip roads too. ninja.gif



Thanks Jaykay and others.

The car is registered on my dads name and me and mates travelled to Scotland but can't remember who the driver was.

For arguments sake say it "maybe"me ?

Shall I fill in the form as the driver and NOT sign it and send it in.
DO I send as recorded delivery ?

If read right police come to your house to confirm who driver was ?
Don't think they will come all that way ?

Then what ?

Regards


southpaw82
They will ask the local police to talk to you.
ASHY111
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 2 Feb 2014 - 00:08) *
They will ask the local police to talk to you.



Then what ?

Admit it was me, as I stated on form ?

P.s sorry to be. Pain !

Regards
ASHY111
QUOTE (ASHY111 @ Sun, 2 Feb 2014 - 00:19) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 2 Feb 2014 - 00:08) *
They will ask the local police to talk to you.



Then what ?

Admit it was me, as I stated on form ?

P.s sorry to be. Pain !

Regards



Also if the person admitted and signed the form what will happen.
Have to send licence and get points and fine.

Will the person sill have to go to court ?
trubster
QUOTE (ASHY111 @ Sun, 2 Feb 2014 - 00:19) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 2 Feb 2014 - 00:08) *
They will ask the local police to talk to you.



Then what ?

Admit it was me, as I stated on form ?

P.s sorry to be. Pain !

Regards

You would have to confirm you were driving to be NG of FTF, but then they have all the evidence they need to prosecute you for speeding.

Seems a pointless excersise if you are not on 9 points

QUOTE (ASHY111 @ Sun, 2 Feb 2014 - 00:47) *
QUOTE (ASHY111 @ Sun, 2 Feb 2014 - 00:19) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 2 Feb 2014 - 00:08) *
They will ask the local police to talk to you.



Then what ?

Admit it was me, as I stated on form ?

P.s sorry to be. Pain !

Regards



Also if the person admitted and signed the form what will happen.
Have to send licence and get points and fine.

Will the person sill have to go to court ?

Send in licence, £100 fine 3 points.

No court if you accept the CoFP

Don't be tempted to name someone who wasn't driving as they WILL have a photo of the driver.
glasgow_bhoy
You say mates were with you, and the cars registered to your father.

If your unsure of who was driving, and go down that road, can you show those mates were insured for the car?
sgtdixie
If it's your fathers car then I assume the NIP/s172 is addressed to him. You must not fill it in. Give it to him. It is his legal responsibility to name the driver. Given he wasn't driving there is no reason for him to mess about going unsigned. He will name you, you then have to decide whether to name & sign form or try the unsigned route when you get a similar request.

ASHY111
QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Sun, 2 Feb 2014 - 09:11) *
If it's your fathers car then I assume the NIP/s172 is addressed to him. You must not fill it in. Give it to him. It is his legal responsibility to name the driver. Given he wasn't driving there is no reason for him to mess about going unsigned. He will name you, you then have to decide whether to name & sign form or try the unsigned route when you get a similar request.



Looks like 3points and a fine !
NeilNeil
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 2 Feb 2014 - 00:08) *
They will ask the local police to talk to you.


If the local police turn up at your door, is it an offence to refuse to confirm your identity?
If it isn't, then perhaps refuse to talk to them?, on the basis that they can't prove that the registered keeper was asked the question.
sgtdixie
QUOTE (NeilNeil @ Mon, 3 Feb 2014 - 14:19) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 2 Feb 2014 - 00:08) *
They will ask the local police to talk to you.


If the local police turn up at your door, is it an offence to refuse to confirm your identity?
If it isn't, then perhaps refuse to talk to them?, on the basis that they can't prove that the registered keeper was asked the question.

Of course you can refuse to speak to them. I have had this several times. I found that turning up at their place of work/college etc and in one case at his golf club focused their minds that the Police can mess them about as much as they tried to do it to us.
NeilNeil
QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Mon, 3 Feb 2014 - 16:47) *
QUOTE (NeilNeil @ Mon, 3 Feb 2014 - 14:19) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 2 Feb 2014 - 00:08) *
They will ask the local police to talk to you.


If the local police turn up at your door, is it an offence to refuse to confirm your identity?
If it isn't, then perhaps refuse to talk to them?, on the basis that they can't prove that the registered keeper was asked the question.

Of course you can refuse to speak to them. I have had this several times. I found that turning up at their place of work/college etc and in one case at his golf club focused their minds that the Police can mess them about as much as they tried to do it to us.


Well if they are trying to harass me at the "golf club" then at least they're not harassing other motorists on the roads.. tongue.gif

oh, and how would the police find out where you work?
sgtdixie
QUOTE (NeilNeil @ Mon, 3 Feb 2014 - 17:13) *
oh, and how would the police find out where you work?

We used to call it basic Police work.
southpaw82
I'm issuing you with a verbal request under s. 172 blah blah.

Not talking to you.

Ok. I suspect you to be guilty of a s. 172 offence. What's your name?

Not telling you.

Get your trousers on son, you're nicked.

Remember, they can make the request of anyone, it doesn't have to be the RK.
NeilNeil
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 3 Feb 2014 - 18:26) *
I'm issuing you with a verbal request under s. 172 blah blah.

Not talking to you.

Ok. I suspect you to be guilty of a s. 172 offence. What's your name?

Not telling you.

Get your trousers on son, you're nicked.

Remember, they can make the request of anyone, it doesn't have to be the RK.


This answer would appear to be at odds with that of SgtDixie. Who did not confirm he would have a power to get your name, or to arrest.

On the other hand if the police pull you over while driving, then it is my understanding that you are required to provide your name, and can be prosecuted for refusing to give it.
Juliet1981
QUOTE (NeilNeil @ Mon, 3 Feb 2014 - 19:19) *
This answer would appear to be at odds with that of SgtDixie. Who did not confirm he would have a power to get your name, or to arrest.


The Police don't have a power to require your name if they speak to you, however if they suspect that you have committed any offence & you do not give them your name then they can arrest you as it is therefore impractical/impossible to deal with you in any other way for the offence.

QUOTE (NeilNeil @ Mon, 3 Feb 2014 - 19:19) *
On the other hand if the police pull you over while driving, then it is my understanding that you are required to provide your name, and can be prosecuted for refusing to give it.


This is totally separate & is written into statute that if you cannot present your driving licence when stopped you must provide your name & date of birth.
NeilNeil
QUOTE (Juliet1981 @ Mon, 3 Feb 2014 - 20:37) *
The Police don't have a power to require your name if they speak to you, however if they suspect that you have committed any offence & you do not give them your name then they can arrest you...


The offences here are speeding and S172. Speeding is not a criminal offence, and I don't think S172 is?
I thought you could only ever be arrested in connection with criminal offences, but it looks like I am wrong about that.
Jlc
Very much criminal - how can you think otherwise?
southpaw82
QUOTE (NeilNeil @ Mon, 3 Feb 2014 - 21:27) *
The offences here are speeding and S172. Speeding is not a criminal offence, and I don't think S172 is?
I thought you could only ever be arrested in connection with criminal offences, but it looks like I am wrong about that.


huh.gif
NeilNeil
QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 3 Feb 2014 - 21:49) *
Very much criminal - how can you think otherwise?


That makes sense.
My reason for thinking otherwise is that you are not regarded by the public as being a "criminal" if you break the speed limit or drive carelessly, and you don't get a criminal record that you have to declare to prospective employers.
Dangerous driving I think you do have to declare.
The Rookie
It is not a recordable offence, but it is most certainly a criminal offence whatever the great unwashed may think.

It's not a civil issue is it? Therefore it is criminal (a specific offence created by statute).
ASHY111
So no point in going for unsigned

Just tek it on chin !
sgtdixie
QUOTE (ASHY111 @ Tue, 4 Feb 2014 - 12:53) *
So no point in going for unsigned

Just tek it on chin !

Going unsigned is a viable option. But it is not some guaranteed get out of jail card you can just play and then sit back satisfied it is game over. One day someone will be prosecuted for going unsigned. It may be you or it may not be for 10 years. But sooner or later it will almost certainly happen. As long as you understand this and can deal with the inevitable Police attention it is still a viable option.

Only you know whether it is worth it.
ASHY111
QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Tue, 4 Feb 2014 - 13:13) *
QUOTE (ASHY111 @ Tue, 4 Feb 2014 - 12:53) *
So no point in going for unsigned

Just tek it on chin !

Going unsigned is a viable option. But it is not some guaranteed get out of jail card you can just play and then sit back satisfied it is game over. One day someone will be prosecuted for going unsigned. It may be you or it may not be for 10 years. But sooner or later it will almost certainly happen. As long as you understand this and can deal with the inevitable Police attention it is still a viable option.

Only you know whether it is worth it.


Cheers pal, go a tek it.

Can'nt be asked with them coming to house etc.

Thanks again to you all.
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