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michty
Good evening,

I have only recently found out about this website from a different forum and was wondering if I could nit pick your brains about a few questions I have.

On Saturday evening I was driving up the A92 just heading towards the Tay Bridge. I spotted the two police bikes but they had already mounted their steeds and switched on the lights. I pulled in possibly 100m up the road.

They asked if I knew why I had been stopped and I said I believed it was for accelerating quite hard coming off a roundabout to which the officer said and you were doing 88mph which I disagreed with. Reason being was because if I am to sit at approx 85mph, GPS on 3 seperate devices shows 76mph. For me to have been clocked at 88mph, I'm guessing my speedo would have shown very close to 100mph if I were doing 88mph.

I asked to see the gun that they used as I didn't believe the speed but the officer stated he would have shown me but the speed never saved/recorded (I heard them talking amongst themselves about it not recording).
He started going on about how it is calibrated every day but that was not what I wanted to know.

I was just going to accept the fine and points instead of going to court which would mean taking a day off my new work which I don't really want to do unless necessary.
One the other forum I mentioned at the beginning, I asked a few questions there which were answered (Such as should I be shown the speed but I have since found out they are not required to. Just that when I heard the officers speaking saying it never recorded then I don't want to then take the points and fine if it was preventable.

I'm guessing it just as simple as their word against mine now?

This is my first driving offense in 14 years of driving so a bit flustered on what to do or what is required. They said if I disagreed with the Notice of conditional offer of fixed penalty then I can take it to court.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.



Several family members have said to not pay the fine and take it further but I don't know the law as indepth as I probably should.
peterguk
QUOTE (michty @ Mon, 20 Jan 2014 - 21:12) *
They said if I disagreed with the Notice of conditional offer of fixed penalty then I can take it to court.


Correct.

QUOTE (michty @ Mon, 20 Jan 2014 - 21:12) *
I'm guessing it just as simple as their word against mine now?


Take it to court and they will give evidence, supported by that of the device used.

You will then need to give evidence, sufficient to cast doubt on theirs. That will IMHO be a very difficult task.
michty
QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 20 Jan 2014 - 21:16) *
QUOTE (michty @ Mon, 20 Jan 2014 - 21:12) *
They said if I disagreed with the Notice of conditional offer of fixed penalty then I can take it to court.


Correct.

QUOTE (michty @ Mon, 20 Jan 2014 - 21:12) *
I'm guessing it just as simple as their word against mine now?


Take it to court and they will give evidence, supported by that of the device used.

You will then need to give evidence, sufficient to cast doubt on theirs. That will IMHO be a very difficult task.


Hi Peter,

Thank you for the quick reply.

I understand that both of them would have to give evidence but if the device never recorded can the court just take their word over mine?

I would need to see what my max penalty would be if I did decide to take it to court and lost. Would my points go up again or would I just get a larger fine?

Another question which I had in my mind, I know of people that have onboard cameras fitted in their cars which record location and also GPS speed etc. I'm tempted to get one if it would help in the future if something like this happened again.

How accurate is GPS speed? Would/could that be used as evidence on my behalf if it were required?
southpaw82
Why would the court believe that not one but two police officers were willing to risk prison simply to convict a motorist of speeding?

peterguk
QUOTE (michty @ Mon, 20 Jan 2014 - 21:29) *
Would/could that be used as evidence on my behalf if it were required?


It could be used as evidence, but without you employing an expert witness (expensive) to verify it's accuracy based on it's hardware, software etc., i doubt it would be an easy get out.
uk_mike
QUOTE
How accurate is GPS speed? Would/could that be used as evidence on my behalf if it were required?


In a straight line at a constant speed very accurate (+/-1mph). But going round a bend or especially when accelerating or decelerating they can be quote inaccurate. If you ever try a sat nav with speed display you will find that when you speed up or slow down quickly the speed display can be quite slow to react sometimes.

You could admit it as evidence but look at it from the point of view of the court. Which would you believe, an officially calibrated device designed to accurately measure speed in a split second, or an untested and unregulated device designed to give you an approximate indication of speed?

Even if you disagree with the precise speed it does not really matter in terms of guilt or innocence whether you are doing 71mph or 100mph you are still as guilty of speeding. The fixed penalty is the minimum possible punishment so to get a better result you need to convince the court that you were doing no more than 70 (or at least that their is no evidence that you were going faster). As two officers were present their verbal evidence that you were exceeding the limit is sufficient to convict on it's own.

If you take it to court and lose the fine will almost certainly be higher, and the court might decide to increase the points (up to 6). The magistrates guidelines do not apply in Scottish courts and any fine and/or points may be higher (or lower) than that indicated, sentences for speeding are sometimes harsher in Scotland than is the case in England.
sgtdixie
You believe you were speeding but not as much as the Police claim. So if you go to court and are asked if you were exceeding the speed limit you will have to say yes. At that point it is game over. You could of course plead guilty and request a Newton hearing where you can argue for a lower speed. Given an approved device was used and 2 officers will give evidence of the speed reading your chances are slim that they would agree a lower speed.

Given that any conviction for speeding would likely be 3 points or more but the fine, costs and victim surcharge much more than £100 this one appears a no brainer. The COFP is the best offer you will get.
uk_mike
No Newton hearings in Scotland. The OP could make a similar argument in his defence but mentioning Newton would mark him down as someone who heard something off the internet, without understanding what it meant (No offence intended, I am sure you know how some benches react to man on the internet defences).

But a Newton style argument is pointless when you already have the minimum sentence, as it's main value is to reduce the sentence.
michty
Ok, Noted and taken onboard.
On a side note I never said I was speeding, I said I accelerated quickly off the roundabout which as far as a know isn't an offense??
I was just merely trying to find out if they required further evidence to convict me as family members said to take it to court due to them saying it never recorded the speed. I suspected two officers words against mine would win anyway. Just thought I should ask before going to pay.
Transit man
QUOTE (michty @ Mon, 20 Jan 2014 - 22:19) *
On a side note I never said I was speeding,

You did not, I suppose your paragraph Reason being was because if I am to sit at approx 85mph, GPS on 3 seperate devices shows 76mph. For me to have been clocked at 88mph, I'm guessing my speedo would have shown very close to 100mph if I were doing 88mph". possibly confused people.

What speed do you think you were doing?
metalmick
ask the family members if they are happy to chip in and pay all costs above the cofp
, may be enlightening.
mm
michty
QUOTE (Transit man @ Mon, 20 Jan 2014 - 22:34) *
QUOTE (michty @ Mon, 20 Jan 2014 - 22:19) *
On a side note I never said I was speeding,

You did not, I suppose your paragraph Reason being was because if I am to sit at approx 85mph, GPS on 3 seperate devices shows 76mph. For me to have been clocked at 88mph, I'm guessing my speedo would have shown very close to 100mph if I were doing 88mph". possibly confused people.

What speed do you think you were doing?


I really have no idea. I was paying attention to the road.
When I spotted them at the side of the road, The needle was not as high as previously mentioned but as already said it would be very difficult to prove so I have no choice.

I would happily pay the extra fine. I'm sure my family members would help pay f I needed too also but I was more concerned of the points issue.

In all fairness after the officers bravado, we actually spoke about a few things such as cars and work when the other was running my details. They did ask my occupation 6 times for some reason?
peterguk
QUOTE (Transit man @ Mon, 20 Jan 2014 - 22:34) *
QUOTE (michty) *
What speed do you think you were doing?

I really have no idea.


Difficult to see any defence there.
michty
QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 20 Jan 2014 - 23:06) *
QUOTE (Transit man @ Mon, 20 Jan 2014 - 22:34) *
QUOTE (michty) *
What speed do you think you were doing?

I really have no idea.


Difficult to see any defence there.


Yes and I understand.
I would like to thank you all for the advice and quick replies. Looks like I better head to the court to pay my fine then if it is a no go.
According to the calculator, The points would not increase. Just the fine.

If I remember right, The device he showed me was an ST*** something or other. Anyone know what this may be? The rest was covered by a leather pouch.
captain swoop
QUOTE
if I am to sit at approx 85mph, GPS on 3 seperate devices shows 76mph


Do you mean when your speedometer is reading 85 your GPS (3 of them) say 76?

I think your Speedo needs looking at!
michty
QUOTE (captain swoop @ Tue, 21 Jan 2014 - 00:38) *
QUOTE
if I am to sit at approx 85mph, GPS on 3 seperate devices shows 76mph


Do you mean when your speedometer is reading 85 your GPS (3 of them) say 76?

I think your Speedo needs looking at!


Probably but I'm glad it over reads and not under reads!
So would the circumstances remain the same if I had two friends in the car so it would be 3 persons words against two? I'm curious as to how all this works.
Atomic Tomato
QUOTE (michty @ Tue, 21 Jan 2014 - 07:05) *
Probably but I'm glad it over reads and not under reads!

Speedometers are allowed to over read (up to 10% I think) but they are not allowed to under read for fairly obvious reasons.
666
QUOTE (michty @ Mon, 20 Jan 2014 - 23:27) *
Yes and I understand.
I would like to thank you all for the advice and quick replies. Looks like I better head to the court to pay my fine then if it is a no go.
According to the calculator, The points would not increase. Just the fine.


The calculator is based on the magistrates' guidelines for England & Wales. There are no such guidelines in Scotland, just the legal maxima (£1000, 6 points or a ban)
michty
QUOTE (Atomic Tomato @ Tue, 21 Jan 2014 - 07:57) *
QUOTE (michty @ Tue, 21 Jan 2014 - 07:05) *
Probably but I'm glad it over reads and not under reads!

Speedometers are allowed to over read (up to 10% I think) but they are not allowed to under read for fairly obvious reasons.


Ah OK. Makes sense. Thanks.

QUOTE (666 @ Tue, 21 Jan 2014 - 08:06) *
QUOTE (michty @ Mon, 20 Jan 2014 - 23:27) *
Yes and I understand.
I would like to thank you all for the advice and quick replies. Looks like I better head to the court to pay my fine then if it is a no go.
According to the calculator, The points would not increase. Just the fine.


The calculator is based on the magistrates' guidelines for England & Wales. There are no such guidelines in Scotland, just the legal maxima (£1000, 6 points or a ban)


Oh. That isn't so good then. Thanks for clearing that up.
BaggieBoy
QUOTE (michty @ Mon, 20 Jan 2014 - 23:27) *
If I remember right, The device he showed me was an ST*** something or other.

Probably a Unipar SL700. SL700
michty
QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Tue, 21 Jan 2014 - 09:06) *
QUOTE (michty @ Mon, 20 Jan 2014 - 23:27) *
If I remember right, The device he showed me was an ST*** something or other.

Probably a Unipar SL700. SL700


Yup that is the one! Thanks!
michty
Fine and points will be paid today once I finish work. After taking the advice on here I think I would be silly to try and fight it.

Does anyone have offical links on traffic law for Scotland. A family member still does not really agree that two officers word without any reading would stand up in court. I would like to send them the information so they too can learn something today! Thanks
AFCNEAL
QUOTE (michty @ Fri, 24 Jan 2014 - 13:02) *
Fine and points will be paid today once I finish work. After taking the advice on here I think I would be silly to try and fight it.

Does anyone have offical links on traffic law for Scotland. A family member still does not really agree that two officers word without any reading would stand up in court. I would like to send them the information so they too can learn something today! Thanks


Family member is talking from warm, dark place! One officer with an approved device is sufficient......
michty
Haha I know. Stubborn too which is why said person has had points on his license since I have been born probably. Just some proof would be good to make him more aware would be handy.

I'm trying to tell him that two officers words are more than adequate for conviction in my case. He doesn't understand that although the device never recorded my speed then the two statements is enough. Either way it will be put to bed today.
AFCNEAL
I'm no expert in the Law and certainly not Scots Law, but 'the law' doesn't prescribe what constitutes evidence so seeing the law in print won't convince anyone!
Dandg
QUOTE (michty @ Fri, 24 Jan 2014 - 13:19) *
Haha I know. Stubborn too which is why said person has had points on his license since I have been born probably. Just some proof would be good to make him more aware would be handy.

I'm trying to tell him that two officers words are more than adequate for conviction in my case. He doesn't understand that although the device never recorded my speed then the two statements is enough. Either way it will be put to bed today.



http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/89

Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984
89 Speeding offences generally.

(1)A person who drives a motor vehicle on a road at a speed exceeding a limit imposed by or under any enactment to which this section applies shall be guilty of an offence.
(2)A person prosecuted for such an offence shall not be liable to be convicted solely on the evidence of one witness to the effect that, in the opinion of the witness, the person prosecuted was driving the vehicle at a speed exceeding a specified limit.

That means that if you have more than one witness you CAN be prosecuted for a speeding offence and the opinion of two witnesses may be enough to make out the charge and result in a conviction. Two blokes down the road would perhaps not be compelling witnesses; two traffic police or ordinary police officers will be highly likely to be regarded as compelling witnesses to excess speed.

One witness and a speed measuring device suffices but is not the only way a sped can be evidenced.
Editing
QUOTE (michty @ Fri, 24 Jan 2014 - 13:02) *
Fine and points will be paid today once I finish work. After taking the advice on here I think I would be silly to try and fight it.

Does anyone have offical links on traffic law for Scotland. A family member still does not really agree that two officers word without any reading would stand up in court. I would like to send them the information so they too can learn something today! Thanks


I am not good on Scottish law, but English law says this:
• The Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, s.89 (1) provides that a person who drives a motor vehicle on a road at a speed exceeding a limit imposed by or under any enactment to which this section applies shall be guilty of an offence. This section requires the opinion of one witness to be corroborated by another witness.

That corroboration can be another person who separately arrives at the belief that a vehicle is speeding, or the opinion of one officer supported by a calibrated device. In this case, presumably, there was both
michty
QUOTE (Editing @ Fri, 24 Jan 2014 - 14:39) *
QUOTE (michty @ Fri, 24 Jan 2014 - 13:02) *
Fine and points will be paid today once I finish work. After taking the advice on here I think I would be silly to try and fight it.

Does anyone have offical links on traffic law for Scotland. A family member still does not really agree that two officers word without any reading would stand up in court. I would like to send them the information so they too can learn something today! Thanks


I am not good on Scottish law, but English law says this:
• The Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, s.89 (1) provides that a person who drives a motor vehicle on a road at a speed exceeding a limit imposed by or under any enactment to which this section applies shall be guilty of an offence. This section requires the opinion of one witness to be corroborated by another witness.

That corroboration can be another person who separately arrives at the belief that a vehicle is speeding, or the opinion of one officer supported by a calibrated device. In this case, presumably, there was both


That's good enough to show him thanks.

Went in and they couldn't find it on the system. She said it normally takes 7-10 days so just entered it manually. Fine and points payed now so matter is done with. Thanks everyone.
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