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ukdeveloper
First ever speeding fine. not sure what to do now?

UKD.
The Rookie
What to do, tell us something (just about anything!) about it!
Jlc
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 16 Jan 2014 - 12:04) *
What to do, tell us something (just about anything!) about it!

Title has a clue...

The s172 request (name the driver) will still need satisfying regardless of the non receipt of first NIP.

The first NIP will be presumed served unless you can rebut that presumption.
ukdeveloper
QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 16 Jan 2014 - 13:10) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 16 Jan 2014 - 12:04) *
What to do, tell us something (just about anything!) about it!

Title has a clue...

The s172 request (name the driver) will still need satisfying regardless of the non receipt of first NIP.

The first NIP will be presumed served unless you can rebut that presumption.


Obviously there is no proof i didn't get the first NIP. and I'm trying to fill in your requested NIP wizard but without dates it seems impossible.

However, I remember being flashed at this location and immediately looking at my speedometer. I made a comment to my colleague who was travelling with me that "jees I'm only doing 32" He said he thought it was a bit severe. I heard nothing more until getting a NIP "reminder" today.

So i should complete the information for drivers details at this stage?

UKD
peterguk
QUOTE (ukdeveloper @ Thu, 16 Jan 2014 - 12:19) *
So i should complete the information for drivers details at this stage?


Absolutely! And bearing in mind this is a reminder, get proof of postage from the P.O.
ukdeveloper
Will do.

here is the bad boy in question, if it makes a difference.

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Grange+Rd,...,90.88,,0,-1.67
ukdeveloper
Also i know its early stages yet, but what are the usual statistics for

A). getting off with it
B). not getting points (more important).

UKD
Dandg
QUOTE (ukdeveloper @ Thu, 16 Jan 2014 - 12:19) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 16 Jan 2014 - 13:10) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 16 Jan 2014 - 12:04) *
What to do, tell us something (just about anything!) about it!

Title has a clue...

The s172 request (name the driver) will still need satisfying regardless of the non receipt of first NIP.

The first NIP will be presumed served unless you can rebut that presumption.


Obviously there is no proof i didn't get the first NIP. and I'm trying to fill in your requested NIP wizard but without dates it seems impossible.

However, I remember being flashed at this location and immediately looking at my speedometer. I made a comment to my colleague who was travelling with me that "jees I'm only doing 32" He said he thought it was a bit severe. I heard nothing more until getting a NIP "reminder" today.

So i should complete the information for drivers details at this stage?

UKD

You have been given another chance to provide the name of the driver so that is what you should do.

You may well have observed that after the flashes that you were doing an indicated 32. Unfortunately for you, shortly before that the 'bad-boy' spotted you were doing 38.

Chances of getting off because your mate will testify to the 32 after you went through and were flashed? Almost none.
ukdeveloper
QUOTE (Dandg @ Thu, 16 Jan 2014 - 13:36) *

QUOTE
You may well have observed that after the flashes that you were doing an indicated 32. Unfortunately for you, shortly before that the 'bad-boy' spotted you were doing 38.

Chances of getting off because your mate will testify to the 32 after you went through and were flashed? Almost none.



I would pretty much have still been in the "We've got you by the balls zone" when i looked at my speedo, and made no conscious attempt to apply the brakes when flashed because i thought I wast going anywhere near fast enough to warrant getting flashed.

I WASNT, but the fact that I could have been speeding prior to being spotted surely is irrelevant. As long as i was only doing 32 when physically flashed is what matters right?

Are those machines ever defective?

I know I'm clutching at straws here, just don't want points thats all. Insurance is high enough already and i have a clean license at the moment.

UKD
Logician
If the reminder gives you another 28 days to reply, you have time to ask for the photos, although the chances of the speed being incorrect are slim. Write back asking for any available photographs to assist in identifying the driver, making no mention of proof or evidence which you are not entitled to at this stage. Most forces will send these or direct you to a website. If you wash off the details and post it up here following the directions in the FAQs, people will be able to tell you if it is a clean ping and calculate the speed from the road markings as it is a GATSO. This does not stop the time running on the 28 days you have to respond. Failing to identify the driver is a much more serious offence than speeding, so do not risk that.

If the reminder gives only 7 days, there is more of a problem, although you could ask for photos immediately and then nominate yourself as the driver after a few days, regardless of not having received the photos, in order to comply with the timetable. They may just send off the photos before receiving your nomination. In either case keep a copy and get a postal receipt.

The more hopeful possibility of avoiding points is that 38 in a 30 qualifies you for a speed awareness course, provided this was not in Scotland and you have not done one in the last three years.
Pete D
As this was in England the you could be offered a Safety Awarness Course with no points but will will have to pay for the course about £85.00. If you want proof of your speed write and request copies on any photo's to help identify the driver. Do not elaborate or mention evidence, proof or calibration certificate. You can then work out the speed from the road markings. This does not stop the 28 day clock ticking for returning the S172. Pete D
Dandg
QUOTE (ukdeveloper @ Thu, 16 Jan 2014 - 14:41) *
QUOTE (Dandg @ Thu, 16 Jan 2014 - 13:36) *

QUOTE
You may well have observed that after the flashes that you were doing an indicated 32. Unfortunately for you, shortly before that the 'bad-boy' spotted you were doing 38.

Chances of getting off because your mate will testify to the 32 after you went through and were flashed? Almost none.



I would pretty much have still been in the "We've got you by the balls zone" when i looked at my speedo, and made no conscious attempt to apply the brakes when flashed because i thought I wast going anywhere near fast enough to warrant getting flashed.

I WASNT, but the fact that I could have been speeding prior to being spotted surely is irrelevant. As long as i was only doing 32 when physically flashed is what matters right?

Are those machines ever defective?

I know I'm clutching at straws here, just don't want points thats all. Insurance is high enough already and i have a clean license at the moment.

UKD

From beginning of radar speed measurement to the second flash is 0.6s usually so I doubt your reading of 32mph after the event is of any consequence. Good luck with it all.
Jlc
QUOTE (ukdeveloper @ Thu, 16 Jan 2014 - 14:41) *
I WASNT, but the fact that I could have been speeding prior to being spotted surely is irrelevant. As long as i was only doing 32 when physically flashed is what matters right?

The initial measurement is made and then the camera flashes twice - at slower speeds the interval is often 0.7s. The distance travelled can be deduced and the speed confirmed - this secondary check has to be within 10% of the primary.

However, unless you have the photo's (as per Logician's advice) then you'll have to take it to court to get the evidence.
The Rookie
How about doing the NIP wizard?

Are you the registered keeper, so this is the first NIP/S172 in the chain, if so you have available the '14 day NIP' defence, if you are not, you probably don't.

Whether this is called a reminder or not, as it's the first one you have received, in law you have 28 days to reply (unless you think one may have arrived in the house and got lost!)

Some comparative dates would help.

So starting again, tell us the story, not just snippets, rubbish info in=rubbish advice out.
ukdeveloper
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 17 Jan 2014 - 03:25) *
How about doing the NIP wizard?

Are you the registered keeper, so this is the first NIP/S172 in the chain, if so you have available the '14 day NIP' defence, if you are not, you probably don't.

Whether this is called a reminder or not, as it's the first one you have received, in law you have 28 days to reply (unless you think one may have arrived in the house and got lost!)

Some comparative dates would help.

So starting again, tell us the story, not just snippets, rubbish info in=rubbish advice out.


Hi, sorry if my original post didn't give enough information, ill try and be a little more descriptive below:

On the 30th November 2012 I pulled out of King Edward Road, Watford turning right onto Chalk Hill. I never EVER drive fast so as far as I am aware was observing the speed limit of what I assumed was 30 mph, but don't recall seeing any signs.

Chalk Hill runs into London Road and I went past a fixed speed camera and got flashed. I immediately looked at my speedo (didn't hit the brakes) and it registered 32MPH. I mentioned to my colleague that "Thats a bit harsh, I'm only doing 32" and he asked if i'd get a ticket and I said i didn't think so as i think theres a 10% leeway, but wasn't sure.

I heard NOTHING at all and thought that this is because I was only doing 32 so wasn't pursued.

Then yesterday 16th December 2012, I received the NIP REMINDER for the offence of doing 38 in a 32.

Thats when I started this post.

The thing is i 10000000% know I wasn't doing 38 as I NEVER go that fast in a 30 zone. I'm actually a pretty boring driver, and am regularly mocked for it. So this to me seems a little odd.

UKD
The Rookie
In which case I'd write to the scammers now, tell them you have only just got the reminder and didn't get the original NIP, be terribly polite 9apologise if you like) and ask for photo's to help you ID the driver.

From this you will then hopefully be able to confirm your speed, you also still have the option of the 14 day NIP defence, though it is notoriously hard to convince the court on verbal evidence alone, any substantiatable issues with post going missing before?

Are you the registered keeper? Please PLEASE do the NIP wizard.

Blood from stone springs to mind!
ukdeveloper
QUOTE (Dandg @ Fri, 17 Jan 2014 - 08:30) *
QUOTE (ukdeveloper @ Fri, 17 Jan 2014 - 08:19) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 17 Jan 2014 - 03:25) *
How about doing the NIP wizard?

Are you the registered keeper, so this is the first NIP/S172 in the chain, if so you have available the '14 day NIP' defence, if you are not, you probably don't.

Whether this is called a reminder or not, as it's the first one you have received, in law you have 28 days to reply (unless you think one may have arrived in the house and got lost!)

Some comparative dates would help.

So starting again, tell us the story, not just snippets, rubbish info in=rubbish advice out.


Hi, sorry if my original post didn't give enough information, ill try and be a little more descriptive below:

On the 30th November 2012 I pulled out of King Edward Road, Watford turning right onto Chalk Hill. I never EVER drive fast so as far as I am aware was observing the speed limit of what I assumed was 30 mph, but don't recall seeing any signs.

Chalk Hill runs into London Road and I went past a fixed speed camera and got flashed. I immediately looked at my speedo (didn't hit the brakes) and it registered 32MPH. I mentioned to my colleague that "Thats a bit harsh, I'm only doing 32" and he asked if i'd get a ticket and I said i didn't think so as i think theres a 10% leeway, but wasn't sure.

I heard NOTHING at all and thought that this is because I was only doing 32 so wasn't pursued.

Then yesterday 16th December 2012, I received the NIP REMINDER for the offence of doing 38 in a 32.

Thats when I started this post.

The thing is i 10000000% know I wasn't doing 38 as I NEVER go that fast in a 30 zone. I'm actually a pretty boring driver, and am regularly mocked for it. So this to me seems a little odd.

UKD

There are some contradictions there.



Be real DandG

Sometimes.... yes sometimes I go 1 or 2MPH over.... sometimes I drive 1 or 2MPH under.

I'd hardly consider that speeding or driving too slow under the limit.

There's no need to reply if you have nothing constructive to say.

UKD

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 17 Jan 2014 - 08:26) *
In which case I'd write to the scammers now, tell them you have only just got the reminder and didn't get the original NIP, be terribly polite 9apologise if you like) and ask for photo's to help you ID the driver.

From this you will then hopefully be able to confirm your speed, you also still have the option of the 14 day NIP defence, though it is notoriously hard to convince the court on verbal evidence alone, any substantiatable issues with post going missing before?

Are you the registered keeper? Please PLEASE do the NIP wizard.

Blood from stone springs to mind!


Hi,

Thanks for the reply, at least it was constructive.

Ive tried to to the wizard, but it asks for specific dates of the original NIP?

Did i Receive an NIP? well yes, but it was a reminder
Did it arrive in time? no
was there a reason for it not arriving in time? No

Then it says "The first NIP to the Registered Keeper must arrive within 14 days unless there is a valid reason why that was not possible, for example a recent change of details"

Thats it.

UKD
The Rookie
So enter some dummy dates so at least we have all the other questions answered, that or just copy the Q's in from another thread.

You do have a NIP (I presume) even if it is also an S172 reminder, they usaully look all but identical (not all though), so could still use the dates.
Jlc
There's 2 angles - the 'late' NIP and the speed.

As noted it is notoriously hard to convince the Mags that post wasn't delivered - indeed, its is presumed served unless you can rebut that presumption. (And to fight it you may have to appeal to a higher court)

We'd need to see the secondary evidence to see whether there's an angle. To be honest, it's unlikely they fire and say 38 with an actual speed of 32. (Probably lower as the speedo will over read slightly) Was there a car coming the other way at the time?

There's a potential fight here but it would require a lot of effort and is potentially high risk in terms of cost. (i.e. At Mag's you could be looking at a bill of £1-2k if you are found guilty after pleading not guilty)
sgtdixie
QUOTE (Dandg @ Fri, 17 Jan 2014 - 09:19) *
You don't seem to have any useful defence material.
As I said above, your mate's evidence of 32mph don't mean squat and neither does yours.
Constructive enough for you or is your definition of constructive only applicable id advice is given to get you off?

Firstly the OP DOES have a defence, the non receipt of the NIP and a witness who will say he was not doing the speed alleged. It is a matter for the court to decide what weight they place on such evidence. Saying it doesn't mean squat is wrong. It is true that it is extremely unlikely what you say will be enough to convince a court, but what Dandg says is based on his relationship to camera enforcement I suspect.

And to dandg, what you say isn't constructive as it is both inaccurate and appears designed only to convince the OP he has no possible chance of challenging the allegation. That is very different from a poor chance.
ukdeveloper
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - November 2013
Date of the NIP: - 45 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 47 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A411 London Road, East of Grange Road, Eastbound, Bushey, Hertfordshire, UNITED KINGDOM
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Second
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - On the 30th November 2012 I pulled out of King Edward Road, Watford turning right onto Chalk Hill. I never EVER drive fast so as far as I am aware was observing the speed limit of what I assumed was 30 mph, but don't recall seeing any signs.

Chalk Hill runs into London Road and I went past a fixed speed camera and got flashed. I immediately looked at my speedo (didn't hit the brakes) and it registered 32MPH. I mentioned to my colleague that "Thats a bit harsh, I'm only doing 32" and he asked if i'd get a ticket and I said i didn't think so as i think theres a 10% leeway, but wasn't sure.

I heard NOTHING at all and thought that this is because I was only doing 32 so wasn't pursued.

Then yesterday 16th December 2012, I received the NIP REMINDER for the offence of doing 38 in a 32.


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - No
Was there a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival? - No

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The first NIP to the Registered Keeper must arrive within 14 days unless there is a valid reason why that was not possible, for example a recent change of details.

    This link will take you to the advice provided by the RAC's legal team.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 09:25:40 +0000

QUOTE (Dandg @ Fri, 17 Jan 2014 - 09:19) *
You don't seem to have any useful defence material.
You are getting the reminders but not the NIP so any reasonable person would perhaps conclude you did get the NIP but deny it. If you have no proof the NIP didn't get to your door then it will be assumed it did.
As far as the speed is concerned you have no proof you didn't drive at 38mph when the speed camera measured you but the police have 2 independent measurements that say you did. You need to name yourself as the driver and when you get an offer of a speed awareness course or fixed penalty you reject that and request a court hearing. That way you will receive the evidence that the police will have gathered showing your speed. You could lie and ask for images to identify the driver, I say lie because you don't need them, but this is a way to get the images to check if the secondary check is correct on the speed camera.
As I said above, your mate's evidence of 32mph don't mean squat and neither does yours.
Constructive enough for you or is your definition of constructive only applicable id advice is given to get you off?


Extremely constructive. Thanks very much, thats a much better response.

Im not trying to get off with it really, but would like not to receive points on my licence as, aforementioned, I drive carefully and pride myself on in 20+ years of driving have never received a speeding ticket before. Therefore would I not be better off attending a speed awareness course to alleviate the points issue.

Im not too bothered about a fine.

Also would I have to notify any future insurers that I have attended a speed awareness course?

UKD.
The Rookie
Only Admiral group ask about courses, whether they use it to increase, decrease premiums or just for information right now no-one but them is sure (and they aren't telling!)
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