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habz
Hi there,

New to the forum , so hope im in the right section.

I stopped outside a shop, i walked in and then realised there is restricted parking. Came out and saw one of the camera car just come and park (illegally , on the other side) There was a sign about 10 m away from me so I went to check ..... i couldn't park there, so i cam eback to my bike, thinking , they wont do me for checking the timing . So i geared up and rode away. Now I got this ticket through my door,

I have tried to view the 'video' evidence online and can't access it. I missed the appointment to go see it at their place and missed that....

Can I demand video footage to be uploaded online? and can penalty be lifted if they've deleted it or something.Time frames from pics show clearly that i was back in under a minute and, being a biker, i have to put gear on, They took the pic just b4 putting the balaclava on.












All help appreciated
hcandersen
Clearly the evidence does not support the allegation because "parking" cannot be proved by showing a vehicle stationary for a period of less than 1 minute because, as you say, the driver is permitted reasonable time to establish the restriction which applies.

You refer to "I missed the appointment to go see it....". C'mon, what's this about? I made an appointment to view the video, this was arranged, the authority said that the enforcement process would be/wouldn't be halted until I'd viewed the video, I didn't turn up (for good/no good reason). You can't just post "I missed it" without explanation, we need to know what's happening with the enforcement clock.

And for good measure, they've not included some mandatory wording in the PCN on this subject. Because a PCN is not required to include photos, the recipient will want to know what happens if they request to view the video or be sent pics in the context of the 28-day period for payment/making reps. The regs require a PCN to include the words "we will respond to any request within a reasonable time" which is designed to allay the recipient's fears that they might ask for pics and then miss their payment deadline.

But these words are missing, aren't they?
habz
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 11 Jan 2014 - 07:45) *
Clearly the evidence does not support the allegation because "parking" cannot be proved by showing a vehicle stationary for a period of less than 1 minute because, as you say, the driver is permitted reasonable time to establish the restriction which applies.

You refer to "I missed the appointment to go see it....". C'mon, what's this about? I made an appointment to view the video, this was arranged, the authority said that the enforcement process would be/wouldn't be halted until I'd viewed the video, I didn't turn up (for good/no good reason). You can't just post "I missed it" without explanation, we need to know what's happening with the enforcement clock.

And for good measure, they've not included some mandatory wording in the PCN on this subject. Because a PCN is not required to include photos, the recipient will want to know what happens if they request to view the video or be sent pics in the context of the 28-day period for payment/making reps. The regs require a PCN to include the words "we will respond to any request within a reasonable time" which is designed to allay the recipient's fears that they might ask for pics and then miss their payment deadline.

But these words are missing, aren't they?


Thanks ever so much for the reply. I was working till about 3 am, so just didn't wake in time for 10.30 am, I called at 11.10 ish, same day and asked if I could come in and they said not today, will hav to give a number and we'll call back ..... i told them I wold not b able to attend their call , so I had left it....

As for the wording, yes for good measure as you said. I believe the video evidence is deleted. From the pic frames u can see the restriction sign's pic ture was take aminute or so after. wat they did was turn the car around go around the roundabout and come back to get the sign's picture. I can't explain it here, but i can prove from the video that they were offending, not me ... when the car will come back around , on the RHS of road you can see where they had parked (illegally) * edited....

Apart from paying £8 for DVD, can I not request/ demand video be uploaded online?

Any further advice? Should I write and say that mandatory info is missing, therefore the PCN is rendered ineffective , or should I get the clip and cause their evidence to backfire and then do so?
hcandersen
Can we get back to viewing the video, I still can't follow you.

Did you actually make an appointment or did you just phone to make an appointment?

If you cannot attend their office to view the video then I suggest you email them and request they supply you with stills. In this email you must ask them to confirm whether they will halt the enforcement process until you've viewed the stills.

You've several grounds on which to make reps, but I want to focus on getting a grip on time, this would then allow us to do things in slower time.
habz
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 11 Jan 2014 - 16:31) *
Can we get back to viewing the video, I still can't follow you.

Did you actually make an appointment or did you just phone to make an appointment?

If you cannot attend their office to view the video then I suggest you email them and request they supply you with stills. In this email you must ask them to confirm whether they will halt the enforcement process until you've viewed the stills.

You've several grounds on which to make reps, but I want to focus on getting a grip on time, this would then allow us to do things in slower time.


Ok... I received the pcn on the 9th , so I rang and asked to see the video evidence at 'their place'... At first, the (incompetent) guy on the phone said we don't do that. I said: what do you mean you don't do that. I read the statement from the letter and then he put me on hold , came back and said : sorry, you can come in, we generally deal with bus lane ... etc. ..... He asked for a phone no. and said would call back with regards ... I was given an appointment at 10.30 (10th jan) which i missed....

As for the stills, (According to the pcn letter )** edit ->( according to the automated machine when you call them, you can view evidence online, not in the letter; the evidence (video and pics can b viewed online) I can access the pictures online but video comes up as 'not found'...

So, I should email them, requesting to upload the video evidence on their website so i can access it and ask for a confirmation of a 'halt'to enforcement process ....?
hcandersen
Would you please park the issue of requiring them to do something which they're not required to do so that we can focus on what they are required to do.

I suggest you email the council at the email address given in the instructions regarding the video and request them to provide you, free of charge, with such still images from that record as, in the authority’s opinion, establish the contravention. These exact (highlighted) words please.

Also ask them to confirm whether they will halt the enforcement process pending your viewing of the images.

Email, not phone, and don't forget to give them your PCN no, name and address.
habz
Ok, will do that now
habz
The email I sent them:


PCN no:
Name:
Address:

To whom it may concern.

Can you provide me, free of charge, with such still images from that record as, in the authority's opinion, establish the contravention
Can you also confirm whether, you will halt the enforcement process pending my viewing of the images

Thanks
hcandersen
Fine.

Make a diary note to come back here in a week if you've not heard from them.
habz
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 11 Jan 2014 - 18:06) *
Fine.

Make a diary note to come back here in a week if you've not heard from them.


Hi,

I have not heard from them yet. The email address I sent it to is : parking@birmingham.gov.uk
hcandersen
You sent your request on 11th and they must comply with this within a reasonable time. This is not specified but as the discount technically ends on 28th "reasonable" would IMO mean within a period which would allow you to evaluate the evidence and decide whether to pay the discount.

The pics will be posted.

The discount theoretically ends on 28th, I suggest you check with the council's website on 29th - I can't wait for them to ask for the full penalty.
habz
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 20 Jan 2014 - 15:30) *
You sent your request on 11th and they must comply with this within a reasonable time. This is not specified but as the discount technically ends on 28th "reasonable" would IMO mean within a period which would allow you to evaluate the evidence and decide whether to pay the discount.

The pics will be posted.

The discount theoretically ends on 28th, I suggest you check with the council's website on 29th - I can't wait for them to ask for the full penalty.


So you are suggesting I wait till they send the full penalty?
Incandescent
QUOTE (habz @ Mon, 20 Jan 2014 - 19:46) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 20 Jan 2014 - 15:30) *
You sent your request on 11th and they must comply with this within a reasonable time. This is not specified but as the discount technically ends on 28th "reasonable" would IMO mean within a period which would allow you to evaluate the evidence and decide whether to pay the discount.

The pics will be posted.

The discount theoretically ends on 28th, I suggest you check with the council's website on 29th - I can't wait for them to ask for the full penalty.


So you are suggesting I wait till they send the full penalty?

Basically, yes, because that then means they have committed a procedural impropriety and this is valid grounds for an appeal at adjudication. You appeal on that and they will not be able to wriggle out of it.
habz
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Mon, 20 Jan 2014 - 22:10) *
QUOTE (habz @ Mon, 20 Jan 2014 - 19:46) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 20 Jan 2014 - 15:30) *
You sent your request on 11th and they must comply with this within a reasonable time. This is not specified but as the discount technically ends on 28th "reasonable" would IMO mean within a period which would allow you to evaluate the evidence and decide whether to pay the discount.

The pics will be posted.

The discount theoretically ends on 28th, I suggest you check with the council's website on 29th - I can't wait for them to ask for the full penalty.


So you are suggesting I wait till they send the full penalty?

Basically, yes, because that then means they have committed a procedural impropriety and this is valid grounds for an appeal at adjudication. You appeal on that and they will not be able to wriggle out of it.


It's now the 1st of February, should I be expecting something from them? or do i need to contact them ,i.e. make a representation?

Thanks
hcandersen
How can you make reps when you haven't seen the evidence against you to which you're entitled and which you've requested?

They've screwed up, but the next move is theirs, not yours.

You could check the status of your PCN on their website.
habz
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 1 Feb 2014 - 07:59) *
How can you make reps when you haven't seen the evidence against you to which you're entitled and which you've requested?

They've screwed up, but the next move is theirs, not yours.

You could check the status of your PCN on their website.


I've checked, but seems nothing is changed.
So ill just sit and wait .... Cool
habz
Starting to panic now.... Im having second thoughts; should i just pay the 70 rather than 600 or so court bill, or is this wat i was waiting for and 'fight it'....







orford
QUOTE
Starting to panic now.... Im having second thoughts; should i just pay the 70 rather than 600 or so court bill, or is this wat i was waiting for and 'fight it'....


Appealing to adjudication will not cost anything. If you lose the most you will have to pay is £70, if you win you will owe nothing.
Incandescent
QUOTE (orford @ Thu, 13 Feb 2014 - 18:42) *
QUOTE
Starting to panic now.... Im having second thoughts; should i just pay the 70 rather than 600 or so court bill, or is this wat i was waiting for and 'fight it'....


Appealing to adjudication will not cost anything. If you lose the most you will have to pay is £70, if you win you will owe nothing.


+1

Where on earth did you get this absurd £600 from ? Can it be people think they get to a real court with unlimited costs that limits the percentage that appeal PCNs. If only we could get 10% of people appealing the system; its less than 1% now !!
habz
Cool, so what do i say?

Procedural impropriety was done... Email was not responded to in good time. And it was not responded to fully?

Please advise

Thanks

P.S. I have been scared by ppl, saying it will end up being more costly and u never win appeals. Thats why i'm panicking. One person even stated how his family member ended with a £600 court bill or something ....
hcandersen
Even the form states that appeals are free!

This is the enforcement process (the PATROL website), I suggest you spend 10 minutes reading this rather than talking to relatives whose recollections are either irrelevant or simply misinformed:

http://www.patrol-uk.info/site/scripts/doc...hp?categoryID=1
habz
Forgot to mention. They sent the pictures, this time in colour ans covering half the a4 page each

So I appeal on the grounds of procedural impropriety? Do I need to add any other information?

I feel more confident now

thanks guys
habz
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Mon, 20 Jan 2014 - 22:10) *
QUOTE (habz @ Mon, 20 Jan 2014 - 19:46) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 20 Jan 2014 - 15:30) *
You sent your request on 11th and they must comply with this within a reasonable time. This is not specified but as the discount technically ends on 28th "reasonable" would IMO mean within a period which would allow you to evaluate the evidence and decide whether to pay the discount.

The pics will be posted.

The discount theoretically ends on 28th, I suggest you check with the council's website on 29th - I can't wait for them to ask for the full penalty.


So you are suggesting I wait till they send the full penalty?

Basically, yes, because that then means they have committed a procedural impropriety and this is valid grounds for an appeal at adjudication. You appeal on that and they will not be able to wriggle out of it.


hcanderson,
can you just clarify as to what I write in the appeals form? Do i just claim that a procedural impropriety by council has taken place? or do i need to elaborate on anything ie. i asked for evidence etc via email and i wasn't replied to in reasonable time....
SchoolRunMum
You'll need to elaborate when you submit your appeal to the TPT but for now you can just complete the form to state you wish to register for adjudication and full details of appeal will follow when you have your hearing date.

I am thinking you have a solid case here!

- there have been a series of procedural improprieties by the Council

- they used a camera car at a location where a CEO on foot would not have been impractical, difficult or sensitive so this shows no regard for the guidelines*

- you were checking the signs and their own pictures show clearly that I was back in under a minute and, being a biker, you had to put gear on. Their picture shows you just about to put the balaclava on and move the bike after reading the sign at the bay. The Chief Parking Adjudicator in the 2011 Report* said 'it should not be a contravention to stop briefly to ascertain the times of operation from the upright sign'.

- At the outset you needed to know what would happen if you requested to view the video or be sent pictures in the context of the 28-day period for payment/making reps. The regulations require a PCN to include the words "we will respond to any request within a reasonable time" which is designed to allay the recipient's fears that they might ask for pics and then miss their payment deadline. But these words are missing

- so you tried to view the video online but the video comes up as 'not found'

- so you phoned to make an appointment to view the footage and were told you 'could not do so at those offices' and you had to read out the wording from the PCN to insist on your rights

- you could not make the appointment they finally rang back with, so instead emailed on 11th January for stills so you could make an informed decision quickly (this was at a point where the discount was still offered). You also asked whether the enforcement would be halted whilst these images were produced as you needed to understand the timeframe involved. And you expected to see more than the minimal 3 photos on the PCN which did not establish any contravention at all and simply showed someone who had returned to their bike after reading a sign

- they didn't reply until 12th Feb (received over a month after your email) not mentioning whether the process had been frozen and now not offering the discount.

- this reply was not received in a 'reasonable time'. "Reasonable" would mean within a period which would have allowed you to evaluate the evidence and decide whether to pay the discount

- Their reply suggested they had taken your enquiry to be your representations against the PCN but in fact you were unable to make reps because you had not seen the evidence against you to which you were entitled and which you'd requested



* P.S. Please read this excerpt from the Chief Parking Adjudicator's Report to understand the point about why a camera car here pays no regard for the guidelines:

http://notomob.co.uk/discussions/index.php?topic=867.0

HTH



habz
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Tue, 18 Feb 2014 - 14:31) *
You'll need to elaborate when you submit your appeal to the TPT but for now you can just complete the form to state you wish to register for adjudication and full details of appeal will follow when you have your hearing date.

I am thinking you have a solid case here!

- there have been a series of procedural improprieties by the Council

- they used a camera car at a location where a CEO on foot would not have been impractical, difficult or sensitive so this shows no regard for the guidelines*

- you were checking the signs and their own pictures show clearly that I was back in under a minute and, being a biker, you had to put gear on. Their picture shows you just about to put the balaclava on and move the bike after reading the sign at the bay. The Chief Parking Adjudicator in the 2011 Report* said 'it should not be a contravention to stop briefly to ascertain the times of operation from the upright sign'.

- At the outset you needed to know what would happen if you requested to view the video or be sent pictures in the context of the 28-day period for payment/making reps. The regulations require a PCN to include the words "we will respond to any request within a reasonable time" which is designed to allay the recipient's fears that they might ask for pics and then miss their payment deadline. But these words are missing

- so you tried to view the video online but the video comes up as 'not found'

- so you phoned to make an appointment to view the footage and were told you 'could not do so at those offices' and you had to read out the wording from the PCN to insist on your rights

- you could not make the appointment they finally rang back with, so instead emailed on 11th January for stills so you could make an informed decision quickly (this was at a point where the discount was still offered). You also asked whether the enforcement would be halted whilst these images were produced as you needed to understand the timeframe involved. And you expected to see more than the minimal 3 photos on the PCN which did not establish any contravention at all and simply showed someone who had returned to their bike after reading a sign

- they didn't reply until 12th Feb (received over a month after your email) not mentioning whether the process had been frozen and now not offering the discount.

- this reply was not received in a 'reasonable time'. "Reasonable" would mean within a period which would have allowed you to evaluate the evidence and decide whether to pay the discount

- Their reply suggested they had taken your enquiry to be your representations against the PCN but in fact you were unable to make reps because you had not seen the evidence against you to which you were entitled and which you'd requested



* P.S. Please read this excerpt from the Chief Parking Adjudicator's Report to understand the point about why a camera car here pays no regard for the guidelines:

http://notomob.co.uk/discussions/index.php?topic=867.0

HTH


Thanks for the effort hcanderson, certainly helped.
They have sent a form alongside, which i didnt have time to scan in,so i just scanned the first page. Shall I include the above points in the space provided on the form and apply for 'a decision without a hearing' since i'm off on holiday for 2 weeks at the start of next month and feel rather uncomfortable face-face.
Incandescent
QUOTE
and feel rather uncomfortable face-face.


Isn't it worth a little discomfort to increase your chance of winning ? Experience suggests that personal hearings have a higher chance of winning than postal. The adjudicator has a better idea of your credibility as a witness. Cases are decided on "balance of probabilities", so get to the hearing if you can.
habz
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 18 Feb 2014 - 19:50) *
QUOTE
and feel rather uncomfortable face-face.


Isn't it worth a little discomfort to increase your chance of winning ? Experience suggests that personal hearings have a higher chance of winning than postal. The adjudicator has a better idea of your credibility as a witness. Cases are decided on "balance of probabilities", so get to the hearing if you can.


Ill send the form with 'procedural impropriety' including details and ask for a hearing, however, can the hearing date be changed? I will include my holiday dates, but don't want them to send a hearing date when i'm not even in the country.
Incandescent
QUOTE (habz @ Wed, 19 Feb 2014 - 15:25) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 18 Feb 2014 - 19:50) *
QUOTE
and feel rather uncomfortable face-face.


Isn't it worth a little discomfort to increase your chance of winning ? Experience suggests that personal hearings have a higher chance of winning than postal. The adjudicator has a better idea of your credibility as a witness. Cases are decided on "balance of probabilities", so get to the hearing if you can.


Ill send the form with 'procedural impropriety' including details and ask for a hearing, however, can the hearing date be changed? I will include my holiday dates, but don't want them to send a hearing date when i'm not even in the country.

If you know the dates, advise when registering. Otherwise you'll need to request an adjournment if you have to depart abroad at short notice. I don't think it's a problem, but they may then decide to adjudicate on the evidence, i.e. postal basis.
habz
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 19 Feb 2014 - 16:00) *
QUOTE (habz @ Wed, 19 Feb 2014 - 15:25) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 18 Feb 2014 - 19:50) *
QUOTE
and feel rather uncomfortable face-face.


Isn't it worth a little discomfort to increase your chance of winning ? Experience suggests that personal hearings have a higher chance of winning than postal. The adjudicator has a better idea of your credibility as a witness. Cases are decided on "balance of probabilities", so get to the hearing if you can.


Ill send the form with 'procedural impropriety' including details and ask for a hearing, however, can the hearing date be changed? I will include my holiday dates, but don't want them to send a hearing date when i'm not even in the country.

If you know the dates, advise when registering. Otherwise you'll need to request an adjournment if you have to depart abroad at short notice. I don't think it's a problem, but they may then decide to adjudicate on the evidence, i.e. postal basis.


I just saw a box on the appeals form; Please tick here if you do not agree to the hearing being arranged with less than 21 days notice.... Going on the 11th, returning on 25th, so i think it should be ok.
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