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mothepro
Hi all,

I have received a scary letter in the post. It is from Bromley Magistrates court and it is for the failure to give information relating to the identification of the driver / rider of a vehicle when required.

The date goes back a couple of months, but the date by which I need to pay is a couple of weeks ago.

Now the thing is, I have no idea what this is for. We have a few company cars registered to our address. however, the letter was sent to a wrong address, instead of going to our address which ends with a 'b' it has gone to an address which ends in '6'. A mistake. We have actually had this before and I've dealt with those tickets, in one case having to pay the original amount and in another it was completely cancelled. However this case seems to be related to some incident that occurred a few months ago, which we have not received any correspondence for at all until now. The problem is, the costs are about £2K.

The letter is addressed to the company secretary and has the wrong address (the mistake is not our fault as we are registered correctly with DVLA). We only appear to have received this one as the person it went to, obviously frustrated with DVLA or whoever's mistake, put a note on it saying REDIRECT TO .... (correct address).

At this point what is my best bet? Should I just ignore it as it hasnt been served correctly and is therefore invalid? Or should I contact the Magistrates?

Letter attached


Thanks!!!

Mo
Gan
Make a statutory declaration on behalf of the company that it knew nothing about the summons

The best place is at the court but you can do it for a nominal charge at most solicitors
mothepro
QUOTE (Gan @ Thu, 9 Jan 2014 - 18:16) *
Make a statutory declaration on behalf of the company that it knew nothing about the summons

The best place is at the court but you can do it for a nominal charge at most solicitors


Do I call them to do so?

And is it better than to ignore it seeing as how it has never been issued to me properly?

Chris1207
Don't ignore it. As it's a company debt, it'll just end up getting passed on to bailiffs / sheriff officers who can legally force entry to commercial premises and seize assets.

Go to your local court and they will be able to explain exactly how to do a stat dec, it's fairly simple though.
Logician
You have received the summons so ignoring it would be foolish. As Chris 1207 says, making a stat dec is a simple process, rung up your local court and arrange a time, probably they will ask you to come at the start of business, just before 10.00
mothepro
QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 10 Jan 2014 - 18:30) *
You have received the summons so ignoring it would be foolish. As Chris 1207 says, making a stat dec is a simple process, rung up your local court and arrange a time, probably they will ask you to come at the start of business, just before 10.00



If the company pays the fine (£2k plus) does that close the matter or will it still be asked to provide information no the dirver of the vehicle at the time?
bama
QUOTE
Do I call them to do so?

nope has to be done in person - and signed there not prior.
any county court will do it for free on spec - go to the admin office. at mags they may (probably will) make you make an appointment and charge.
use nearest county court IMO
Logician
QUOTE (bama @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 11:38) *
QUOTE
Do I call them to do so?

nope has to be done in person - and signed there not prior.
any county court will do it for free on spec - go to the admin office. at mags they may (probably will) make you make an appointment and charge.
use nearest county court IMO


But making the stat dec is for the purpose of getting the matter re-opened and the conviction withdrawn which the county court cannot do, so you would then have to deliver the stat dec on the magistrates court. Surely the better route is to go to the magistrates court in the first place and get everything done at the same time.
mothepro
QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 12:18) *
QUOTE (bama @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 11:38) *
QUOTE
Do I call them to do so?

nope has to be done in person - and signed there not prior.
any county court will do it for free on spec - go to the admin office. at mags they may (probably will) make you make an appointment and charge.
use nearest county court IMO


But making the stat dec is for the purpose of getting the matter re-opened and the conviction withdrawn which the county court cannot do, so you would then have to deliver the stat dec on the magistrates court. Surely the better route is to go to the magistrates court in the first place and get everything done at the same time.


If the company pays the fine (£2k plus) does that close the matter or will it still be asked to provide information on the driver of the vehicle at the time?
bama
QUOTE
Surely the better route is to go to the magistrates court in the first place and get everything done at the same time.

county avoids the appointment delay (important when its all 'in flight') and the fees.
and most often the mags is around the corner from the county court.
Logician
QUOTE (bama @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 12:21) *
QUOTE
Surely the better route is to go to the magistrates court in the first place and get everything done at the same time.

county avoids the appointment delay (important when its all 'in flight') and the fees.
and most often the mags is around the corner from the county court.


They may be near each other in your area, they are nowhere near in mine, and there is no significant delay.

QUOTE (mothepro @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 12:19) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 12:18) *
QUOTE (bama @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 11:38) *
QUOTE
Do I call them to do so?

nope has to be done in person - and signed there not prior.
any county court will do it for free on spec - go to the admin office. at mags they may (probably will) make you make an appointment and charge.
use nearest county court IMO


But making the stat dec is for the purpose of getting the matter re-opened and the conviction withdrawn which the county court cannot do, so you would then have to deliver the stat dec on the magistrates court. Surely the better route is to go to the magistrates court in the first place and get everything done at the same time.


If the company pays the fine (£2k plus) does that close the matter or will it still be asked to provide information on the driver of the vehicle at the time?


I think that is likely to be the end of the matter, but why would you do that when you could easily get it cancelled? There is a theoretical possibility of action against any company officer responsible for failure to supply information, but that is unlikely.
The Rookie
QUOTE (mothepro @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 12:19) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 12:18) *
QUOTE (bama @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 11:38) *
QUOTE
Do I call them to do so?

nope has to be done in person - and signed there not prior.
any county court will do it for free on spec - go to the admin office. at mags they may (probably will) make you make an appointment and charge.
use nearest county court IMO


But making the stat dec is for the purpose of getting the matter re-opened and the conviction withdrawn which the county court cannot do, so you would then have to deliver the stat dec on the magistrates court. Surely the better route is to go to the magistrates court in the first place and get everything done at the same time.


If the company pays the fine (£2k plus) does that close the matter or will it still be asked to provide information on the driver of the vehicle at the time?

The matter would be closed.
Gan
QUOTE (mothepro @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 12:19) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 12:18) *
QUOTE (bama @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 11:38) *
QUOTE
Do I call them to do so?

nope has to be done in person - and signed there not prior.
any county court will do it for free on spec - go to the admin office. at mags they may (probably will) make you make an appointment and charge.
use nearest county court IMO


But making the stat dec is for the purpose of getting the matter re-opened and the conviction withdrawn which the county court cannot do, so you would then have to deliver the stat dec on the magistrates court. Surely the better route is to go to the magistrates court in the first place and get everything done at the same time.


If the company pays the fine (£2k plus) does that close the matter or will it still be asked to provide information on the driver of the vehicle at the time?

It will close the matter but I can't see why you're in the habit of paying fines when somebody misaddresses your post and you don't receive it

I suspect that one reason the fine is at the top end of the scale is that you paid a previous one without protest and your company looks like a habitual offender

As a thought, to prevent the problem in future, why don't you get your cars registered to a less confusing address such as your accountant's ?
mothepro
QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 12:37) *
QUOTE (bama @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 12:21) *
QUOTE
Surely the better route is to go to the magistrates court in the first place and get everything done at the same time.

county avoids the appointment delay (important when its all 'in flight') and the fees.
and most often the mags is around the corner from the county court.


They may be near each other in your area, they are nowhere near in mine, and there is no significant delay.

QUOTE (mothepro @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 12:19) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 12:18) *
QUOTE (bama @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 11:38) *
QUOTE
Do I call them to do so?

nope has to be done in person - and signed there not prior.
any county court will do it for free on spec - go to the admin office. at mags they may (probably will) make you make an appointment and charge.
use nearest county court IMO


But making the stat dec is for the purpose of getting the matter re-opened and the conviction withdrawn which the county court cannot do, so you would then have to deliver the stat dec on the magistrates court. Surely the better route is to go to the magistrates court in the first place and get everything done at the same time.


If the company pays the fine (£2k plus) does that close the matter or will it still be asked to provide information on the driver of the vehicle at the time?


I think that is likely to be the end of the matter, but why would you do that when you could easily get it cancelled? There is a theoretical possibility of action against any company officer responsible for failure to supply information, but that is unlikely.



Thanks - I just messages you not realising you replied here. Thanks

If I go to the court / magistrates and provide a statutory declaration that I did not receive the paperwork, will that cancel the original notice or will it merely reset it back to stage 1?
The Rookie
It will reset to summons stage, the CPS can then decide whether to issue a new summons or not, it can only be for the offences originally summonsed.

What is 'stage1'?
mothepro
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 12:46) *
It will reset to summons stage, the CPS can then decide whether to issue a new summons or not, it can only be for the offences originally summonsed.

What is 'stage1'?


Sorry - I meant the summons stage.

Basically, if I fill in the stat dec then it will go back to CP who will then reissue the summons - is there any reason why they would not do so? And assuming they do, I would then end up having to try work out who was the driver at the time many months ago. If I can work it out, the driver will end up with points on their licence. If I cannot, the company will again be subject to a fine of the same amount.
Gan
If they reissue the summons, you defend it on the grounds that the police never sent a correctly addressed S172

By the time anyone sends you a correctly addressed S172 AND you reply naming the driver AND he receives his own S172 request AND he replies admitting it, the original speeding offence will be timed out and it's too late to prosecute him

Worth spending a bit of time doing what you can to narrow down the list of drivers

As an employer, you should be keeping records of who is in charge of company vehicles
It doesn't have to be complicated but now is a good time to set up a system
AFCNEAL
If the Company for some inexplicable reason is a 'habitual offender' I'd not assume the fine will remain the same or that an irritable Mag might suggest some research into the fitness of the directors of the company..........
mothepro
QUOTE (AFCNEAL @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 13:25) *
If the Company for some inexplicable reason is a 'habitual offender' I'd not assume the fine will remain the same or that an irritable Mag might suggest some research into the fitness of the directors of the company..........


The company is not a habitual offender, this is the first time its gone to a magistrates and it was only because no notification was received by us prior.

QUOTE (Gan @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 13:23) *
If they reissue the summons, you defend it on the grounds that the police never sent a correctly addressed S172

By the time anyone sends you a correctly addressed S172 AND you reply naming the driver AND he receives his own S172 request AND he replies admitting it, the original speeding offence will be timed out and it's too late to prosecute him

Worth spending a bit of time doing what you can to narrow down the list of drivers

As an employer, you should be keeping records of who is in charge of company vehicles
It doesn't have to be complicated but now is a good time to set up a system



Ah - that I didnt know. How long do they have from time of offence to prosecute the driver?
The Rookie
6 months to start proceedings (lay information in his name at court) after the alleged offence date.
mothepro
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 13:32) *
6 months to start proceedings (lay information in his name at court) after the alleged offence date.




Thanks!
mothepro
QUOTE (mothepro @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 13:30) *
QUOTE (AFCNEAL @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 13:25) *
If the Company for some inexplicable reason is a 'habitual offender' I'd not assume the fine will remain the same or that an irritable Mag might suggest some research into the fitness of the directors of the company..........


The company is not a habitual offender, this is the first time its gone to a magistrates and it was only because no notification was received by us prior.

QUOTE (Gan @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 13:23) *
If they reissue the summons, you defend it on the grounds that the police never sent a correctly addressed S172

By the time anyone sends you a correctly addressed S172 AND you reply naming the driver AND he receives his own S172 request AND he replies admitting it, the original speeding offence will be timed out and it's too late to prosecute him

Worth spending a bit of time doing what you can to narrow down the list of drivers

As an employer, you should be keeping records of who is in charge of company vehicles
It doesn't have to be complicated but now is a good time to set up a system



Ah - that I didnt know. How long do they have from time of offence to prosecute the driver?


How exactly does the 6 months work? From the information I have been given my the magistrates, this refers to an offence in June. Does that mean it is now too late because 6 months have elapsed, or do the police now have another 6 months from when the stat dec is filed?
sgtdixie
QUOTE (mothepro @ Thu, 16 Jan 2014 - 15:53) *
QUOTE (mothepro @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 13:30) *
QUOTE (AFCNEAL @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 13:25) *
If the Company for some inexplicable reason is a 'habitual offender' I'd not assume the fine will remain the same or that an irritable Mag might suggest some research into the fitness of the directors of the company..........


The company is not a habitual offender, this is the first time its gone to a magistrates and it was only because no notification was received by us prior.

QUOTE (Gan @ Mon, 13 Jan 2014 - 13:23) *
If they reissue the summons, you defend it on the grounds that the police never sent a correctly addressed S172

By the time anyone sends you a correctly addressed S172 AND you reply naming the driver AND he receives his own S172 request AND he replies admitting it, the original speeding offence will be timed out and it's too late to prosecute him

Worth spending a bit of time doing what you can to narrow down the list of drivers

As an employer, you should be keeping records of who is in charge of company vehicles
It doesn't have to be complicated but now is a good time to set up a system



Ah - that I didnt know. How long do they have from time of offence to prosecute the driver?


How exactly does the 6 months work? From the information I have been given my the magistrates, this refers to an offence in June. Does that mean it is now too late because 6 months have elapsed, or do the police now have another 6 months from when the stat dec is filed?

The 6 months becomes irrelevant now as the original summons was laid within the 1st 6 month period.
Gan
For the S172 but nobody has been summonsed for the original speeding offence
sgtdixie
QUOTE (Gan @ Thu, 16 Jan 2014 - 18:36) *
For the S172 but nobody has been summonsed for the original speeding offence

Quite right, I misunderstood the question, sorry.
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