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Pajero
Hi All

I parked in a street in Coventry that is a dead end. At the end of the street there are no markings for about 3 metres and 3 cars can park there side by side.
3 cars are normally parked there all day and on many occasions one of them is mine. I have even asked a traffic warden about it in the past and he said that there were no retrictions there.
About 3 metres from the dead end there are double yellow lines for about 2 metres. After that there there is a designated parking area restricted to permit holders or some time limit. I have never used it so dont know the limit.
On this occasion I parked at the dead end as before, however, a large pile of leaves had been collected and left there, so my car was a little further from the end of the street. I assumed some council worker must have collected the leaves into a heap and will come back to take them away so I didnt just drive over them. As a result the back of my car may have hung over the double yellows. I would have checked it if the PCN had been stuck to my windscreen. But it wasnt. It was trapped under passenger side wiper blade so I didnt notice it. In fact I drove home 10 miles on a dual carriage and still notice it. Lucky it didnt fly off. I only noticed when i returned home walking later on in the evening and saw it under the wipers.

The offence on the PCN is 'Parked Longer than permitted' which implies it was parked in the permit holders area which it wasnt.

I emailed Cov city council and asked them to review the case and they rejected the appeal. I aksed them again to look at the photographic eveidence if any and they refused.
I have now receivedthe Notice to Owner and wish to appeal because this an incorrect PCN.

Can someone advise how best to go about it please?
All advice very much appreciated.
Thanx
Paj
Incandescent
PCN please, and a few photos or GSV reference wouldn't come amiss either.
Pajero
Hi
What does GSV stand for?
Editing
Google Street View
Bogsy
Coventry's PCN's used to be shite, so post both sides up to let us see if they've improved the wording.
Pajero
Hi All

Sorry for delay in replying but here are the images of the PCN


Front



Back




Hope they are legible.

Thanx for your help
Paj
Pajero
Here is the GSV image



I was parked where the whte van is. However my rear could have been close to the yellow lines due to the leaves, but I still dont understand how I could have overstayed.

Regards

Paj
Pajero
Hi All

Just bumping up as I need to respond soon to the appeal request.

Thanx in advance

Paj
Pajero
Hi All

In view of the facts stated above I am planning on stating on my appeal that the 'Offence did not take place'.

Anbody have any other views ?

Regards
Paj

hcandersen
You take nearly 2 weeks to respond to a question and then bump!

We need the location.

Please forget about the yellow lines, they're not relevant.

The alleged contravention is that you parked for longer than permitted in the parking place.

So, what was the restriction in the parking place?

We don't know because we don't know where you were.

If GSV has the sign - and it is the same one - then just post this.

You've missed the discount.

I would have thought that a Notice to Owner would have been served on the registered keeper by now, but you do not mention having received one.

Have you and are you the registered keeper?
Pajero
Hi Hcandersen

Thanx for yor reply.

Apologies if I have been confusing but I have already received the Notice to keeper. That is what i need to reply to.

If I give out the location wont that will give the game away. There cant have been many tickets issued on that day for that location.
There are no restrictions for where the white van and adjacent vehicles are parked. As I say mylself (and others) have parked there all day on previous occasions without any problems.

Maybe this link will help.

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=lower+ford...=12,158.58,,0,0

I dont understand what the ticket is for.

Regards
Paj
hcandersen
All you need to do is to delete your personal info and PCN No, but leave in all other info.

Have the council got pictures on their website? If so, please post them. If too many, then the ones which include the traffic sign.

Clearly, if there isn't a traffic sign at all, then you did not commit any contravention. And if there isn't one in the council's pics, then they have no evidence, even if one does exist.

Post the NTO and pics and we'll help you compile your reps, but you must get these in within the 28-day period which ends......?

Don't delay posting the date of the NTO just to get all the info together, we must know the time constraints. You could have the best argument in the world, but if you miss the 28-day deadline, no-one might hear them.
Pajero
I intend to post the NTO this weekend with the reason that the Offence did not take place.

I'll also explain that the parking area has no restrictions and the fact that I have already asked the council to review their photographic evidence but they haven't or refused to do so.
I'll also state how frustrating and a complete waste of time this PCN is.

BTW, what do you mean by "Have the council got pictures on their website? If so, please post them. If too many, then the ones which include the traffic sign."
Pics of what?

Regards
paj
hcandersen
Of the contravention, i.e. your vehicle, the location and, importantly, your vehicle and the sign (which should be in one shot).

You seem to have made up your mind about what you're going to say anyway.


QUOTE
I intend to post the NTO this weekend with the reason that the Offence did not take place.


These two don't go together. Do you mean that you intend to post your representations to the council this weekend or????

I am worried that your reps will reach the council too late because, for one thing, I'm not certain you know how to calculate the latest date for receipt.

What is the date of the NTO?
Pajero
Hi

The date of notice and date of posting is 12/12/2023. I am calculating the 28 days to 11/01/2014. Please advise if this is correct.

According to the documentation I can make reps online too.

I don't have pics of the sign as there is no sign there.
Pajero
Hi All

I have finally received a response from Cov Council. But first a little history.

I sent my reps by post on the 6/1/14 by recorded delivery well before the deadline of 11/1/14. A few days later I received a charge notice for £75.
I rang the council to ask why and they told me that my reps had not been received. I told him that it was sent on time and I had the post office receipt. The royal mail website even had a signature for the delivery on 8/1/14.
The guy told me that I had missed the deadline and if i did not pay the £75 they will be sending some more forms, and and I should mention all this in there. However nothing arrived until now.

The letter states 'Your representations against the above penalty Charge Notice have been carefully considered .... Ground for cancellation have not been established and this letter is a formal notice of rejection of representations'

It goes on to say i now have 28 days to pay £70 or appeal. (I dont know where the £70 has come from as it was £75 before).

There is a green form attached about requesting a hearing type and and defence details. I intend to fight this but I need all the help i can get.
Can you please tell me the best way to go about it. Also has there been a procedural issue as they have sent me a charge letter prior to this letter. It seems to be a bit of a mess.

Thanx in advance
Paj

hcandersen
You must tell us the date of the charge certificate and you must post your reps and the letter you've received, all of it less your personal details.

DancingDad
Coming into this late but fully concur with HCA
Your posts really do suggest that you have a good case. The PCN is flawed and your account of all communications with Coventry suggest serious flaws on their part.

But. We need to see the paperwork and get a clearer understanding of the somewhat confused situation to be able to advise.

I do think that you can ultimately win, I also believe that you could end up in a very messy situation if not dealt with correctly.
Please post all papers, both yours and the council's. Only delete personal information. We need to see dates and times.
Neil B
As the others have said.

Get the paperwork up here!

Clearly you don't understand it and how can we if we're not allowed to see it?

The confusing situation is just a result of how Councils work - 'eventually'. Issue of a Charge Cert (the £75) crossed with them recording receipt of your reps, simple.
But it does sound as if they may have jumped the gun with that CC. The deadline you mention as 11/1/14 was actually 12/1/14

We also haven't seen what reps you submitted have we?
Did you include PCN flaws cos, as Bogsy said, Coventry are always tosh - and it was/is.
Pajero
Hi All

Here is the paperwork although I am not sure its going work as I am using the works computer which is highly restrictive.

Reps -

As for the Grounds For Representations I seleted The Alleged contravention did not happen


Charge Notice No 1 -


Charge Notice No 2 -


Cov City Letter Page 1 -

Cov City Letter Page 2 -

Green Form Page 1 -

I hope this ticks all the boxes as is sufficient to compile a defence.
PS. The original PNC was uploaded in an earlier post ages ago.

Thanx in advance
Paj
Neil B
The first thing that jumps out is the rather hilarious date of the Charge Certificate????????
same date as PCN issued? Now that's quite fierce progression of the process!! laugh.gif
Not quite sure what to do about it but it sure is (was) invalid.

Not looked at the rest yet.

---

Oh dear, the NoR is a jkoe in many technical ways as well - well, at least 3.
DancingDad
OMG

Doesn't really matter where you were parked or if you overhung a line.

Get the appeal to TPT ready my son.

We'll detail it for you.
Hippocrates
Littered and peppered with procedural improprieties - Dillinger job.
Pajero
Hi Guys

Thanx for the quick replies and the confidence that they have generated.

Whats the next step?

Regards
Paj
DancingDad
We put together a long list of challenges, which you will then send to the Adjudicators TPT as instructed on the appeal form
Important thing is not to miss the 28 day deadline but it is sufficient to send in bullet points (better if fully detailed) to get the appeal registered.

The other thing I would do is write to Coventry advising that:---
Ref PCN ?????
You have issued an unlawful charge certificate in that it was issued before the issue of the official Notice of Rejection and by the date of notice, prior to the issue of the Notice to Owner and alongside the PCN. In this respect, any pending action from the issue of the CC must be stopped and the CC cancelled.
Sign and Date.

Keep a copy of the letter, it will go in the points to TPT. Simply puts the council on notice in case they do something really stupid like issuing an Order for Recovery.

Starting from the begining.
Contravention did not occur as you were parked on an unregulated stretch of road, not on the regulated section close by clearly marked by signs and lines. Council have not provided any photographic evidence to the contrary. (have they ??)

PCN is fatally flawed in that it provides two distinct and separate timings for both the 14 day discount period and the 28 day payment or challenge period
On the front of the PCN the correct periods are shown. On the back, the timings have a day added by the use of the term within 14 (28) days of the date of this notice.

Procedural Impropriety in unlawfully issuing a Charge Certificate out of the prescribed order of documents.

Procedural Improprietry in issuing a Charge Certificate with incorrect date that potentially renders the recipient liable to premature recovery proceedures.

That will do for starters but there are more so just start the listing.
Pajero
Hi DancingDad

The date on the NoR is 6/3/14 so I should get the appeal posted beginning of next week 24/25. Again recorded and signed for delivery is required.

You are right, they have not provided any photographic evidence. I had a look a while ago at the council website but could not find any section relating to PCN photos. If you are awae of the wed address please let me know.

Just for my full understanding what does CC stand for in your post?

I will get the letter that you suggested off to the Council ASAP.

Thanx
Paj
DancingDad
Don't post it yet,let's get the details all sorted

CC = charge certificate

Don't chase photos now, not worth it. One of two things happened. Either you were over line or you weren't in normal cases that would be the decision and CEO photos would show it.
But with the feck up they have managed, simply say that you have seen none, it really makes no difference as they have totally failed on the procedures otherwise. It simply adds a little more

Do make that deadline
More later
Neil B
I don't have time to help you put it together but here are the other errors i noted >>>

I'm sure someone will help.

-----The TPT form first!!! -- WTF they've entered the wrong date for NoR?? Kinda revealing on their postal habits?

-----The NoR has no description of the 28 period you now have to submit an appeal to TPT.

-----Neither does it say that an Adjudicator can allow more.

-----It makes no statement regarding costs.

----- It threatens definite escalation with "will" issue a Charge Cert and "will" etc.

----------------------------

Also - you don't need to use 'recprded' post. You are paying for something you don't get; Nothing will be signed for.
Just get a free Certificate of posting.

Your deadline for appeal to reach TPT is 6th April, I'm unsure why you think earlier.
Hippocrates
TPT take e-mails and attachments. Was there not a PIN code to register the appeal online with TPT?
DancingDad
Just parking this here from another thread...relevant to CC being wrongly issued. (courtesy of Hippo)

QUOTE
Register Kept Under Regulation 20 of the Road Traffic (Parking Adjudicators)(London) Regulations 1993, as amended or Paragraph 21 of the Schedule to the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007, as applicable

Case Reference: 2120136111
Appellant: Mr David Michael Vousden
Authority: Bexley
VRM: KB57ZMV
PCN: XL80734771
Contravention Date: 22 Dec 2011
Contravention Time: 11:46
Contravention Location: Halfway St, Sidcup
Penalty Amount: £110.00
Contravention: Stopped on a restricted bus stop
Decision Date: 20 Apr 2012
Adjudicator: Mamta Parekh
Appeal Decision: Allowed
Direction: cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Notice to Owner.
Reasons: The penalty charge notice has been issued for being "stopped on a restricted bus stop stand". It has been issued by CEO using a mobile camera device. The CEO's own vehicle appears to be stopped at the same location and therefore also in contravention. It would therefore offend the rules of natural justice for the enforcement authority to continue enforcing this penalty charge notice.
I also find that there has been a procedural impropriety
The Regulations define "procedural impropriety" as meaning
" a failure by the enforcement authority to observe any requirement imposed on it by the 2004 Act, by the General Regulations or by these Regulations in relation to the imposition or recovery of a penalty charge or other sum and includes in particular-
(a)the taking of any step, whether or not involving the service of any document, otherwise than-
(i)in accordance with the conditions subject to which; or
(ii)at the time or during the period when,
it is authorised or required by the General Regulations or these Regulations to be taken; and
(b)in a case where an enforcement authority is seeking to recover an unpaid charge, the purported service of a charge certificate under regulation 21 of the General Regulations before the enforcement authority is authorised to serve it by those Regulations.

The appellant claims that the local authority have issued a charge certificate dated 22 nd March when an appeal had been made to this tribunal. The appeal form was received from the appellant on the 8th March which is within the 28 days of the Notice of Rejection which was the 27/02/12. However due to an error on the part of the enforcement authority the Notice of Rejection date was incorrectly entered on the appeal form as being the 27/01/12. As a consequence there was a delay in registering the appeal as the appeal was originally considered as being out of time.
However the regulations only allow the issue of Charge certificate if no appeal has been made within the requisite time period and not when an appeal is registered or the local authority receive notification of the same. I am therefore satisfied that there has been a procedural impropriety and allow this appeal



DancingDad
Just bouncing this as appeal needs to be registered V soon.

Pajero..... phone TPT and ask for a PIN to be able to register online or if you can register initial appeal by email with full evidence to follow.

I'll stick a full listing of points up later for you

Shouldn't be an issue even with post as long as posted before the weekend.
Pajero
Hi DD

Just rang TPT and they said only some councils offer online submissions and since I didnt get a pin number with the form its not possible.

However i can scan and email the form to them to register the case.

I am planning on getting something off to them by end of the weekend.

Thanx
Paj

Hippocrates
You clear as to what to write on the form: just registering?
DancingDad
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Thu, 27 Mar 2014 - 12:59) *
You clear as to what to write on the form: just registering?


Yup

Hadn't collated everything for you as you seemed to go missing but no worries, we will.

Can't remember all that TPT require apart from form you posted. I think there is a box for evidence/submissions and tick boxes for the grounds.
Tick boxes contrvention did not occur and Procedural Impropriety

In evidence box, write no more then
I was not parked in contravention
Coventry issued an early Charge Cerificate plus other procedural errors that I will list seperately.

Full submission to follow.

Decide whether you want a hearing or what as on form. I prefer hearings but I'm warped and enjoy them. They are quite informal and the adjudicator and clerk will help you follow any bits in the proceedings that you do not understand. They are held local to you anywhere in country so you do not need to worry about getting there.
Check with TPT that they will accept by email. Post otherwise, today or tomorrow for safety and phone monday to confirm receipt. Dont miss the deadline.
Hippocrates
TPT do e-mails and attachments. No problem.
Pajero
The form appears to consists of only 1 page. The other 2 attached pages are for notes and guidance. Is that correct ?

The closest venue is Birmingham. Can I claim expenses for travel.

Regards
Paj
Hippocrates
You can only claim costs for travel etc if you win and convince an adjudicator their conduct was wholly unreasonable. The other alternative is a telephone hearing which they pay for.
Pajero
Hi

I have sent my appeal electronically (via email) on the grounds as instructed by DancingDad.

Now I need to compile the other procedural errors and submit them. Is that to be done at the hearing or beforehand?

Thanx
Paj
Hippocrates
QUOTE (Pajero @ Sun, 30 Mar 2014 - 23:52) *
Hi

I have sent my appeal electronically (via email) on the grounds as instructed by DancingDad.

Now I need to compile the other procedural errors and submit them. Is that to be done at the hearing or beforehand?

Thanx
Paj

TPT will acknowledge from now on and tell you what to do. You deal with them from now on only. When you receive evidence pack, you submit your submissions in full but obviously come here first.

As an aside, I have issues with TPT re 7 day rule, but don't worry about that at present!

3(3): http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/3482/schedule/made

Make a note of when you receive the pack from the council and the TPT letter informing you when they tell the council to serve their documents to you. ninja.gif
DancingDad
As Hippo says, important thing is appeal is registered. TPT should be back quickly with confirmation that it has been registered and won't mind if you phone Monday to confirm they have it. They cannot answer legal questions but are very helpful with anything regarding procedures.

They will be sending you a letter giving dates for submissions and possibly hearings as Birmingham is fairly frequent place for hearings
hcandersen
Meanwhile, back to the contravention which allegedly occurred at the block-end of Lower Ford Street, Coventry.
Close inspection of google maps reveals that there might well be some form of parking place markings in situ, these are not really clear.
Forget the procedural issues (include them by all means, but don't go overboard) because there's an elephant in the room.
Read the NOR and you'll see that it is clear: there is a traffic sign 9 metres to the rear of your car. However, the council's insurmountable hurdle is that this sign doesn't apply to where you were, the parking place in which it's situated is terminated and separated from where you were by double yellow lines. Pl focus on this, it's your guaranteed winning argument (assuming the markings are as per google maps - OP pl confirm).
DancingDad
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 31 Mar 2014 - 09:35) *
.............Read the NOR and you'll see that it is clear: there is a traffic sign 9 metres to the rear of your car. However, the council's insurmountable hurdle is that this sign doesn't apply to where you were, the parking place in which it's situated is terminated and separated from where you were by double yellow lines. Pl focus on this, it's your guaranteed winning argument (assuming the markings are as per google maps - OP pl confirm).


They do phrase that nicely in the NOR. but miss the bit that says whether or not you had encroached on the lines...... and you acknowledged to us that you might have due to the pile of leaves.
However, as HCA says, it is the first point in laying out the appeal...... go back to Post #25 where I'd started with the 4 (to me) main points. Contravention did not occur and why is always the first point in an appeal when there is any doubt.
Pajero
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 31 Mar 2014 - 08:35) *
Meanwhile, back to the contravention which allegedly occurred at the block-end of Lower Ford Street, Coventry.
Close inspection of google maps reveals that there might well be some form of parking place markings in situ, these are not really clear.
Forget the procedural issues (include them by all means, but don't go overboard) because there's an elephant in the room.
Read the NOR and you'll see that it is clear: there is a traffic sign 9 metres to the rear of your car. However, the council's insurmountable hurdle is that this sign doesn't apply to where you were, the parking place in which it's situated is terminated and separated from where you were by double yellow lines. Pl focus on this, it's your guaranteed winning argument (assuming the markings are as per google maps - OP pl confirm).


I will try and take some photos today and post up so as to confirm (without google maps).
hcandersen
And remember, the contravention has nothing whatsoever to do with yellow lines which in this case are in fact red, as in herring.
Hippocrates
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 31 Mar 2014 - 13:09) *
And remember, the contravention has nothing whatsoever to do with yellow lines which in this case are in fact red, as in herring.

Isn't there a Red Heron case? huh.gif
Pajero
Hi All

Received an email today from TPT acknowledging registration of case. next I have to wait for Cov city council to respond but I can send more details to TPT in the meantine.

As for the Road markings and sign here are the photos of the area. Its clear to see that the sign only applies to the marked box section and not to the area beyond the double yellow lines. Would you guys agree?











Regards
Paj
Hippocrates
The advice was and still is to wait for the council's evidence pack. Make a note of the date registered and all further correspondence from the TPT.
DancingDad
I'm assuming that you were parked in the corner you have pictured ??

If so, you would have had to be a long way from the end of the road to get into the bays.
And unless you count dry patches where cars have moved, there are no signed bays at the end. Can't even see remains and considering that the bays and DYLs look quite fresh, no excuse for the lines NOT to be at the end if that is what the council believes should be the case.

May have overlapped the DYLs but as HCA pointed out, that is not the contravention.

I'm ready to bet that the council have got photos, will look at them when they see the appeal is going through and not even put in an evidence pack
hcandersen
OP, a traffic sign only has effect in the parking place in which it is situated.
There isn't one at the block end and, even if there was, it's not the one which the authority claim gives rise to the alleged contravention.
Let's not contemplate our navels too much, they're b******d, they just don't know it yet.
Pajero
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 1 Apr 2014 - 23:42) *
I'm assuming that you were parked in the corner you have pictured ??

If so, you would have had to be a long way from the end of the road to get into the bays.
And unless you count dry patches where cars have moved, there are no signed bays at the end. Can't even see remains and considering that the bays and DYLs look quite fresh, no excuse for the lines NOT to be at the end if that is what the council believes should be the case.

May have overlapped the DYLs but as HCA pointed out, that is not the contravention.

I'm ready to bet that the council have got photos, will look at them when they see the appeal is going through and not even put in an evidence pack


That is correct, I was parked in the corner of the block end in the pictures. Nowhere near the marked box section where the sign applies.

This PCN is completely frivolous and in my view is tantamount to fraud. Demanding payment for a non event The council need to be taught a lesson that they cant just throw their weight around. A waste of taxpayers money. I really want to give them a piece of my mind at the tribunal.


Sorry, rant over. I have asked them twice to review their evidence prior to appeal and wont listen. Either they dont have any photos, they dont care or are worse than incompetent. Probably all.

Regards
Paj
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