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donnylad
Hi all, i'm new here to this and this is the 1st time i've been in such a situation so could do with you're help.

Basically I have been put in the same situation as a previous post. http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t85979.html

The ticket was a NTD on the windscreen from Jd parking and I have very similar issues like the other post has suggested. (Very hard to notice signs at night....unclear signage on entrance but exit has them....misleading notice saying Saturday parking only.

From reading the above thread....am I right in saying that I am best waiting for a letter from the company? The notice was issued on the 7/12 at 11.15 pm so should expect this before when?

Hopefully you guys can give me the best advice to follow as i've read that much so far i'm mixed up as of what direction to take.

If you need any other information please ask and thanks in advance

Donnylad

link doesn't work.....try this http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=85979
ManxRed
Yes, unless the car is hired or leased/company car then wait for the first letter, which ought to be a Notice to Keeper. You should then appeal to that.

This has the advantage of not revealing who the driver was, which presents potential pitfalls for the parking company, as well as presenting them with an opportunity to mess up the Notice to Keeper and provide you with more ammunition in appealing it.

Come back when you get a letter from them. It's supposed to be after 28 days but before 56 days from the parking incident.
donnylad
QUOTE (ManxRed @ Thu, 12 Dec 2013 - 13:02) *
Yes, unless the car is hired or leased/company car then wait for the first letter, which ought to be a Notice to Keeper. You should then appeal to that.

This has the advantage of not revealing who the driver was, which presents potential pitfalls for the parking company, as well as presenting them with an opportunity to mess up the Notice to Keeper and provide you with more ammunition in appealing it.

Come back when you get a letter from them. It's supposed to be after 28 days but before 56 days from the parking incident.


Thanks ManxRed.

Just wanted to be careful as they had placed one on the windscreen and the notice says I have 28 days to appeal but from reading other things, it said to ignore it still. thanks for clarifying. Ill wait till the new year then to get their letter haha.

What will be my desired action when I do receive the letter? Is this when I appeal to get a POPLA code?

Will I still have the option to pay the reduced amount if I don't reply/ do have an appeal after this 28 da period?
kommando
Forget the reduced amount, you owe nothing and if you follow the advice you will pay nothing.

The PPC has to reject your appeal and supply a POPLA code before you can submit the POPLA appeal.
Jlc
QUOTE (donnylad @ Thu, 12 Dec 2013 - 13:26) *
Is this when I appeal to get a POPLA code?

Yup.

QUOTE (donnylad @ Thu, 12 Dec 2013 - 13:26) *
Will I still have the option to pay the reduced amount if I don't reply/ do have an appeal after this 28 da period?

Probably not. The reduced bribe is usually only available within 14 days of the PCN. The Notice to Keeper is only likely to offer the full charge - but it doesn't matter as you will be appealing as the keeper and will be getting POPLA to cancel it.

Just noticed that JD seem to use PCS to pay PCN's - so I wouldn't be surprised if the Notice to Keeper comes from Parking Collection Services.

Does the PCN make reference to any 'breach'?
donnylad
QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 12 Dec 2013 - 13:52) *
QUOTE (donnylad @ Thu, 12 Dec 2013 - 13:26) *
Is this when I appeal to get a POPLA code?

Yup.

QUOTE (donnylad @ Thu, 12 Dec 2013 - 13:26) *
Will I still have the option to pay the reduced amount if I don't reply/ do have an appeal after this 28 da period?

Probably not. The reduced bribe is usually only available within 14 days of the PCN. The Notice to Keeper is only likely to offer the full charge - but it doesn't matter as you will be appealing as the keeper and will be getting POPLA to cancel it.

Just noticed that JD seem to use PCS to pay PCN's - so I wouldn't be surprised if the Notice to Keeper comes from Parking Collection Services.

Does the PCN make reference to any 'breach'?


Just says contravention 10- parking on private land without a valid permit and/or authorisation. Also explains the codes on the back.

Its mainly the signs that annoy me. I went yesterday to get my own photos which are similar to the ones posted in the other link. The signs on the side I parked a not lit so hard to see. On entrance all you see is the sign in front saying "Saturday parking only" and on the exit it says private car park which surely should be on the way in.
emanresu
QUOTE
The signs on the side I parked a not lit so hard to see. On entrance all you see is the sign in front saying "Saturday parking only" and on the exit it says private car park which surely should be on the way in.


That's your winner. Keep the photos as you'll kill it at POPLA - but since they do everything to avoid giving out the code, you'll need to keep at them.

I forecast that your Notice to Keeper will be "lost in the Xmas post" and the next thing you'll get is a debt collector letter with coloured writing.
donnylad
Well ive finally got letter to the above case. What a coincidence it gets delivered after the 56 days since issue but is dates well over a week ago. Letter is dated 24th January, It is now the 3rd of Feb.

Anyway, All the details match that of the ticket except one small thing. The total amount due is now £120 for the NTK instead of the PCN for the driver of £100. Surely thats not allowed?

What are my next steps now?

I believe I appeal this but what information should/shouldn't I include to get the POPLA code
ostell
It is the date the letter was received by you, not the date on the letter. Was there a PO date stamp on the envelope? Write back to them and point out that they have missed the 56 day period that allows them to hold the keeper liable under POFA.
Jlc
£120 exceeds the BPA's 'cap'. I would complain to them too.
donnylad
QUOTE (ostell @ Mon, 3 Feb 2014 - 13:47) *
It is the date the letter was received by you, not the date on the letter. Was there a PO date stamp on the envelope? Write back to them and point out that they have missed the 56 day period that allows them to hold the keeper liable under POFA.


I thought it was date printed on top of letter?

I cant prove what day a received it apart from my mother been the one giving it to me this morning.

Below are the photos of envelope and letter. All details have been covered but are correct except the charge is now £120. The letter is Parking Collection Services but the return address is DRPL Ltd in Dukinfield



Jlc
No option for the keeper to appeal either. Second complaint to BPA.
donnylad
Thats on the reverse of the page....want me to post it up? It does say I have to appeal in writing which I hate as sometimes you can only prove by sending it recorded whereas an email i can save on my computer to prove sent date etc.

They ask that i put my relevent evidence and my details and that if they reject they will provide a POPLA code. At this stage it is ok to give my details isnt it but still not admit to the offence isnt it? (Dont use "I" etc)

Should I try reply saying that they are passed the date I received the letter, or still push through for POPLA?

Jlc
Use free proof of postage.

Challenge away...
SchoolRunMum
There are loads of examples of that green PCS letter on here, why not search 'Collection green letter' (which gave me results including another JD Parking thread) and also I think 'P4Parking' use them too, so that would be a good search to see the same letter and what people did before. You will need to send a challenge as keeper, to PCs and copy in JD Parking. Use a version as linked here, there are even some suited to a case where keeper liability does not apply:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4816822

Start it by saying the letter was received today and you have kept the envelope (no need to say whether it shows a PO franked date or not). Then continue with the usual appeal points as in the linked thread.

This firm would have been a better one to appeal immediately, with hindsight (could have appealed as the keeper to the actual PCN and you'd have been at POPLA stage by now).
ostell
QUOTE (donnylad @ Mon, 3 Feb 2014 - 14:10) *
I thought it was date printed on top of letter?


The date on the letter is irrelevant as many firms give an earlier date so that they seem to be within the limits.
donnylad
So this is the letter I have drafted from a document found on moneysupermarket. Is this ok?

I have added a few things and blanked details on here but they are on the actual document?



Without prejudice, except as to costs

Parking Charge Notice - Notice to Keeper –

This letter is a formal challenge to the issue of your Parking Charge Notice - Notice to Keeper as set out in the current BPA Ltd AOS Code of Practice B.22

On 07 December 2013 I was the registered keeper of a xxxxx registration number xxxxxx

Before I decide how to deal with your Parking Charge Notice - Notice to Keeper, I should be grateful if you would first answer all the questions and deal with all the issues I have set out below. Once you have done so, I will be able to make an informed decision on how I deal with the matter.

I should be grateful for specific answers to all questions raised. In this respect I remind you of the obligations set out in the current Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct.

I dispute your claim for the reasons set out below. Please note that although I dispute the whole basis of the parking charge, my main concern is its disproportionate and punitive level.

1. Your parking charge amount claim.

Please explain on which of the following grounds your claim is based:

(i) Damages for trespass
(ii) Damages for breach of contract
(iii) A contractual sum
2. Your loss.

If it is your case that that a trespass was committed or that a contract was breached such that your claim is one for damages; please give me a full breakdown of the actual losses which evidences that this parking charge is a true reflection of the damages caused solely by the alleged parking contravention.


3. Your status – the creditor.

Your Parking Charge Notice - Notice to Keeper simply mentions JD Parking Consultants. Please tell me who is the actual creditor making this £120 parking charge demand. I need to know exactly who is making the claim and in what capacity.

4. Ownership of premises.

Please tell me who owns the car park as I wish to send them a copy of this letter.
5. Contractual Authority (as required by BPA Ltd AOS CoP B.7)

Please provide me with a copy of the contract between your company and the landowner/landholder that provides the necessary contractual written authority for the issue and enforcement of your Parking Charge Notice - Notice to Keeper.

6. Signage.

If it is your case that a contract has been breached or that a contractual sum is now due, please send me photographs of the signs that you display and upon which you seek to evidence that a lawful and legally enforceable contract was been entered into. Please ensure that the photographs show the terms and conditions in a clear and legible manner. Please provide me with a diagram showing the locations and layout of those signs at the car park. Also provide evidence that the wording is in plain and intelligible language and in sufficiently large print as to be legible to a driver at the car park’s entry point.
Also, after visiting the site of the alleged contravention stated on the letter, misleading signs are placed on the site in which I have proof which can be attached if required which states Saturday parking is allowed.
6. POFA 2012 and BPA Guidelines
I refer to POFA 2012 and Sub section 8(4)(b) and 8(5) which states that the Notice to Keeper must be given by
“Sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.”
And
“The relevant period for the purpose of sub-paragraph(4) is the period of 28 days following the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice to driver was given.”
There were 28 days after the initial 28 days to receive this letter in which I received the letter on the 3rd February which constitutes to 29 days.
Also, under the BPA guidelines, I would like a breakdown as mentioned in points 1 to 3 of how I am responsible for a charge of £120 pounds even though signs on the site of the contravention say £60 fine within 14 days and £100 thereafter.
7. Summary
I look forward to receiving your acknowledgement within 14 days and as there are no ‘exceptional circumstances’ your comprehensive reply within 35 days (in accordance with the BPA AOS Code of Practice B.22.8). I will then be able to make an informed decision as to how I deal with your Parking Charge Notice – Notice to Keeper.
If you reject this challenge or fail to address the issues that have been raised then, in accordance with the BPA AOS Code of Practice 22.12, please ensure that you enclose all the required information (including the necessary ‘POPLA code’) so that I may immediately refer the matter for their decision.
If you do reject the challenge and insist on taking the matter further I must inform you that I may claim my expenses from you. The expenses I may claim are not exhaustive but may include the cost of stamps, envelopes, travel expenses, legal fees, etc. By continuing to pursue me you agree to pay these costs when I prevail.
If you fail to follow any of the procedures outlined in the BPA AOS Code of Practice or your legal requirements under the Protection of Freedoms Act, or the requirements of the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct then I will make a formal complaint to the DVLA Data Sharing Policy Group, D16.
Please Note: Unless you have specifically requested it and received my express permission, you do not have my authority to disclose or refer this letter or any other communication from me to any other person or organisation.
Yours
SchoolRunMum
Where did you get that ancient template from? I gave you a link to my NEWBIES thread on MSE which gave you proper appeal wording? Sigh. ''Without prejudice'' just shows them you are using legalese you do not understand and have used a template (and it's one they've no doubt seen and laughed at before). And to start: ''Before I decide how to deal with your Parking Charge Notice'' gives the PPC a chance to say that this is an enquiry, not an appeal.

Send an appeal as keeper to follow that - I already linked a thread with dozens of examples. Send the appeal NOW to both JD and PCS, written by you as keeper (not driver) just like all the very simple examples waiting for you to read them in the MSE thread I linked. This is very frustrating, you have NOT appealed yet!
Gan
+1

That's not a challenge
It's just a request for information

If you insist on using a letter like that, begin with "I am challenging for the following reasons"

A couple of the usual appeal points followed by "if you do not cancel the notice I require the validation code to refer the matter to POPLA. In order to prepare my further appeal I require the following information" :

THEN you can continue with your original version

Personally I prefer letters to be as short as possible with no loose ends to be used as diversions or twisted against you
There's also less opportunity to demonstrate that you don't understand what you're writing

Just for starters "Without prejudice" means that YOU can't present the letter as evidence that you tried to clarify your legal position

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