Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: NIP from fixed Variable Speed camera M6 (SB)
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
RedKipper
Morning everyone! Thanks for reading in advance, sorry if it seems that this has been asked a thousand times already. This post concerns a judgement call I have to make over a NIP and the options open to me. I have read a fair bit on here, and on the wider internet, but a little personal advice is always reassuring!!

On the XXth July 2013 a car registered to the company that my partner works for was reported for speeding between junction 10 and 10A on the M6 (southbound) for excess speed in a 40mph variable speed limit. The actual offence reading:

For the alleged offence of: 52 Exceed variable speed limit – ACD
at: XX.XX on: XX/XX/XX
at (place): M6 (SB-ATM) between junctions 10a and 10 (SB)-40mph, United Kingdom
Local order s. 17 (2) and (4) RTRA 84 & Sch 2 RTOA 88


My partner received the original NIP on 27th September 2013. She called the West Mids Police Central Ticket office asking for more information, claiming that we would be unable to say with surety who was driving. She also asked (verbally) for the picture which would be used in evidence to help us identify the driver and was told that the picture was taken from a rear facing camera and as such did not identify the driver and as such would not be supplied to her. She was also informed that it was down to her as the registered keeper to inform or face a S172 offence carrying up to 6 point and a £1000 fine if she did anything except provide the information requested.

She signed and returned it naming me as the driver as she felt that she had no other course of action, and whilst she couldn’t be 100% sure who was driving, she feared that if this went further she might lose her job (Yes, I know…). In addition the person she spoke to at the Central Ticket Office left her in no uncertainty that should she not complete the report, this would have far more serious consequences for her.

Subsequently, I received the NIP addressed to me (at the same address) on the 11th November (dated 6th postmarked 7th November) asking for me to provide information under s172.

In commentary, we are lucky enough to have 2 cars (hers is a company car, mine is privately owned; both are insured and available for either of us to drive at any time for any purpose) and we both have jobs that require us to drive to formal, and informal, meetings with this being a route that we both use regularly. This is not the car I would normally drive, but as I said, we do use the principle that the first one out gets the last car on the drive. I would say that if she were ever questioned by a visiting Police Officer she will still name me as the driver as she now believes she has no choice as she filled in the original NIP naming me.

So then, I see that there are a few options open to me here:

- Saying we cannot reliably say whom the driver was
- Trying to push this over 6 months
- Naming myself and taking whatever punishment is given out

So I’d appreciate any advice that you have, please, but I do realise that time is now fast running out…
The Rookie
If you do not name the driver you will be summonsed for that offence, 6 points, fine upto £1000 and an insurance hike for 5 years that is much more than the speeding.
How will you push it over 6 months without commiting the S172 offence abovce requiring the driver to be named within 28 days?
What speed is alleged, be silly to turn a 4 hour course into 6 points.

The law requires you to use 'reasonable dillignece' to ID the driver, the bar for that can be considered to be set unreasonably (sic) high at court, so diaries, mobile and home phone calls, card receipts etc etc, anything that could establish which of you was (or in fact was not) driving at the time.

Please read the 'READ THIS FIRST BEFORE POSTING' sticky (again) and complete the NIP wizard.

Remove the offence date as it helps highlight your caes to west mids Police who do monitor these forms, although it is a very fine date (my Birthday!).
Jlc
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 25 Nov 2013 - 11:21) *
What speed is alleged, be silly to turn a 4 hour course into 6 points.

52 in a 40 - SAC territory but time may be too short...
The Rookie
Wasn't sure if that was the alleged speed or not......

Noting that 2 different offence dates are given as well!
Jlc
Indeed, quite a long gap between the offence and the NIP arriving to the OP's partner. Although, could be a lease company and workplace to process first...
sgtdixie
Too late for a SAC as we are already at month 4.

If you return the s172 saying you do not know who was driving you will receive a summons. It is also possible your partner will get one as well as they have nominated someone who is not admitting to be the driver.
RedKipper
Okay, thanks for the advice and replies… I’ve edited the post for the dates, as suggested.

I have no idea how I would push this over the 6 months, except for having read other peoples posts about requesting the photo, having to attend to look at that photo, court holidays etc etc. However that’s why I asked, I wasn’t sure that it was that easy (well I was pretty sure it wouldn’t be!!).

I already ran the NIP Wizard and it states:

As you are not the person keeping the vehicle, the reasonable diligence test doesn't apply to you.
Therefore, you are only required to provide such information as is in your power to give (e.g. the names and addresses of the possible drivers).

You should reply within the 28 day period and explain the circumstances in a covering letter.


But it was the reasonable diligence point that bothered me and I wondered how this would most likely play out in reality. Obviously if it were as simple as writing and explaining that we could not be 100% sure, and seeing the case drop, then that would be the best for me. However facing court for other offences, that might require representation, wouldn’t be my preferred course of action and taking the fine, rightly or wrongly, would be the easier thing to do.

So, are you sure the speed involved is 52mph? I wasn’t sure if that’s what it meant either and I believe that they refused to tell her when she called the Ticket Unit.

I did look up S52 of the RTA but that refers to testing of goods vehicles, so wondered what the number ‘52’ related to..
The Rookie
Nothing you suggests will help on the 6 months, the end of the 28 days is the end of the 28 days......also proceedings have to be started within 6 months, they don't have to get you into court.

NIP WIZARD?

What about the other RD?
Jlc
Ah, the '52' could just be a (internal) reference code for the offence rather than the speed...

They don't have to tell you the speed at this stage - just the driver identity is being requested (or to be confirmed).
RedKipper
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - July 2013
Date of the NIP: - 100 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 105 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - M6 (SB-ATM) between junctions 10a and 10 (SB)-40mph, United Kingdom
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Occasional Driver
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - My partner received the original NIP on 27th September 2013. She called the West Mids Police Central Ticket office asking for more information, claiming that we would be unable to say with surety who was driving. She also asked (verbally) for the picture which would be used in evidence to help us identify the driver and was told that the picture was taken from a rear facing camera and as such did not identify the driver and as such would not be supplied to her. She was also informed that it was down to her as the registered keeper to inform or face a S172 offence carrying up to 6 point and a £1000 fine if she did anything except provide the information requested.

She signed and returned it naming me as the driver as she felt that she had no other course of action, and whilst she couldn’t be 100% sure who was driving, she feared that if this went further she might lose her job (Yes, I know…). In addition the person she spoke to at the Central Ticket Office left her in no uncertainty that should she not complete the report, this would have far more serious consequences for her.

Subsequently, I received the NIP addressed to me (at the same address) on the 11th November (dated 6th postmarked 7th November) asking for me to provide information under s172.


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - No
As you were not responsible for the vehicle, somebody else has named you as the driver. Were you driving? - Unsure
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • As you are not the person keeping the vehicle, the reasonable diligence test doesn't apply to you.
    Therefore, you are only required to provide such information as is in your power to give (e.g. the names and addresses of the possible drivers).

    You should reply within the 28 day period and explain the circumstances in a covering letter.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:24:14 +0000
RedKipper
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 25 Nov 2013 - 13:35) *
Nothing you suggests will help on the 6 months, the end of the 28 days is the end of the 28 days......also proceedings have to be started within 6 months, they don't have to get you into court.

NIP WIZARD?

What about the other RD?


The Rookie - Okay thanks, understood.

Sorry, NIP Wizard now posted.

What did you want to know about the other RD? The car is registered to a large company that own and run their own fleet. It is a 'benefit car' (as such not required for day to day duties nor subject to logging for use) and the car was 3 days post new delivery when this happened. The two combined resulted in the late first NIP to her, though one was allegedly sent to the company within the 14 days. They have no record of receipt or compliance; they do this on an ad-hoc basis only.

Jlc - Thanks for confirming. I was thinking if it were 52 then I'd just accept it and move on!
Logician
The reasonable diligence test does not apply to you but it does apply to your partner, who is the keeper of the vehicle (not the registered keeper) You cannot say who was driving the vehicle on the basis of the consequences if it was one or the other, that can lead to serious trouble as Chris Huhne and Vicky Pryce could confirm. A court is unlikely to accept that the keeper of a company car could not remember who was driving it 3 days after taking delivery of it as a brand new company car. You need to get your thinking caps on and work out who really was driving and nominate them. If it was your partner she must correct her nomination of you.
The Rookie
So what of reasonable dilligence did your partner as keeper perform? The same test effectively applies to you as naming someone as driver who can be shown to have not been driving can lead to 10 months in jail, compared to 3points for speeding it seems a daft idea, I doubt your wife's company will be overly concerned with her getting done for speeding (if it was her), what action if any has resulted from the NIP (answer I suspect is none).
Figaro
To the OP. How do you keep a record of what meetings and jobs you have to do or go to? I use outlook calendar and it syncs to my phone, giving me postcode info for my satnav. Have a look in your diaries or calendars and see where your meetings were on that day.

Also, check your emails assuming you do have email, a few days before and after to see any reference to meetings. Check your credit card and bank statements to see what transactions occurred and on what days. Food, fuel, coffee etc.

It sounds cras but you need to try harder to remember who was driving as it just won't wash that you can't and you'll end up with a lot worse.

For what it is worth my NIP from June or July, from the same camera I suspect, mentioned a speed of 55 but it wasn't obvious. I can check the exact wording if you are unsure about your speed?

Figster
RedKipper
QUOTE (Figaro @ Tue, 26 Nov 2013 - 10:19) *
To the OP. How do you keep a record of what meetings and jobs you have to do or go to? I use outlook calendar and it syncs to my phone, giving me postcode info for my satnav. Have a look in your diaries or calendars and see where your meetings were on that day.

Also, check your emails assuming you do have email, a few days before and after to see any reference to meetings. Check your credit card and bank statements to see what transactions occurred and on what days. Food, fuel, coffee etc.

It sounds cras but you need to try harder to remember who was driving as it just won't wash that you can't and you'll end up with a lot worse.

For what it is worth my NIP from June or July, from the same camera I suspect, mentioned a speed of 55 but it wasn't obvious. I can check the exact wording if you are unsure about your speed?

Figster


Okay, so I'm pretty sure we can work out who was driving. I guess the original question in my mind (not having come across this before) was how far was due diligence taken? It seems absolutely clear (thank you all for this!!) that as Police / Court process is poor and the burden on them to provide any guidance or evidence completely nil, all this is solidly stacked in their favour and so simply saying 'I can't remember' won't wash.

Hey, I now see I was being incredibly naïve, but that's exactly the kind of info I was after.. rolleyes.gif So once again, thanks for explaining.

The Exact wording on the NIP is above, but also as follows:

For the alleged offence of: 52 Exceed variable speed limit – ACD
at: XX.XX on: XX/XX/XX
at (place): M6 (SB-ATM) between junctions 10a and 10 (SB)-40mph, United Kingdom
Local order s. 17 (2) and (4) RTRA 84 & Sch 2 RTOA 88


There was some discussion over the number '52' above, but the conclusion was that it probably doesn't mean anything, and my luck in these matters isn't normally great! sad.gif (I've scanned and attached the NIP just in case)

Out of interest, if you don't mind me asking, from your NIP in July, what happened?
RedKipper
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 26 Nov 2013 - 01:16) *
So what of reasonable dilligence did your partner as keeper perform? The same test effectively applies to you as naming someone as driver who can be shown to have not been driving can lead to 10 months in jail, compared to 3points for speeding it seems a daft idea, I doubt your wife's company will be overly concerned with her getting done for speeding (if it was her), what action if any has resulted from the NIP (answer I suspect is none).


Sadly, she had acted before she thought. I tried to explain that her company really wouldn't care less and this was between her and the Police, but she is rather stubborn in most things and wouldn't listen... dry.gif She also did rather take her phone call with the ticketing unit rather at face value and the threat of 'Give yourself up of face £1000 fine and an additional 6 points!' and 'No you can't see the picture it's of no use to you anyway!' did rather scare her into acting before really thinking about it.

And you're dead right, her company couldn't care less. Their attitude to all of this was so 'not bothered' that they don't log the NIP's, the dates they are received or the dates returned.

I do get the whole '3 points is better than jail time' or worse, my point in asking was to understand what the likely process / penalty for things other than the speeding fine were and what 'due diligence' actually meant. For taking the time to explain that - thank you! biggrin.gif
Figaro
The text of my NIP is the same but my number, and therefore I think we can assume speed, was 55.

There was no doubt it was me driving so I did a little bit of digging to see if there were any current loopholes as regards the variable speed limits, the signs, some not displaying correctly but it seems they are all closed. This in my opinion is due to the fact that the system will not arm for detecting and taking photos of speeding cars unless the speed is definitely displayed on the lane gantry sign. There is an electrical current check and also a photoelectric check to ensure light is being emitted in the correct LEDs and there for the speed is displayed.

I bit the bullet, sent my NIP and after quite a wait 6-8 weeks maybe, I got my COFP which I duly paid by credit card on the form having sent both parts of my license in. I did this recorded just in case it got lost, to avoid the hassle factor if it got lost.

The only part of the whole process I am happy about is getting tescos clubcard points on my credit card payment!!!

I drive the Birmingham area motorways a lot and the 40mph variable limits when there is stationary traffic ahead are the worst to adhere to. A steady 50 is fine, but an immediate 40 with a slow down from 70 when there is often clear road ahead is asking for an accident due to in attention. More chance of it happening there than there is of it happening at the back of the queue because of all he brake lights, again I my opinion.

Bitter rant over, victory will be mine, come the revolution.

Figster
RedKipper
Hey Figaro, thanks very much for your reply! Exactly what I wanted to hear, I guess (well if I can't get off on a technicality?!).

I guess my hesitancy in coughing for the ticket straight up (just for simplicity as I have no points and my partner had already named me in panic) was partly to do with previous treatment by the system in similar matters but mostly the reasoning in your last paragraph of your post! If it's clear, this bit of the M6 is sometimes part of my commute to work (and always on the way home), and as you've said the unpredictability and inconsistency of these signs in action is ridiculous. I have often sat in stationary traffic when the signs are posted at 60 and on clear roads when they are posted at 40...

Having looked at who was doing what that day, turns out that we were both on the M6 that morning, but that's largely irrelevant now, I'll take the points and she will pay the fine - just for simplicity. Shame when it comes to this, but in a this situation, where it seems more like a lottery than law enforcement, I'll take the 3 points and the fine and move on (hopefully!!)..

Cheers for your help!
Figaro
Cheers Kipper, roll on 'Spring 2014' when the managed motorway network south of the M54 will be completed. I hold out high hopes of that the addition of an extra lane between the M5 and spaghetti will make a difference further north in the mornings and vice versa northbound in the evenings.

For a while, before the current upgrades started, there was a distinct improvement in general M6 flow with the extra lanes where available, Once they all link up we might get an even better flow and less stop start.

I don't go north of the M54 much, thankfully!

Fess up and move on, it makes you feel better! At the very least when you get your COFP send it and your license back with proof of postage or better still recorded. There's enough threads on here to show you why you want to make sure you stuck to the rules!
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2014 Invision Power Services, Inc.