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fossn
Hi
I have received a postal requisition for speeding on the last day of the six months time limit.
It has a time to attend a magistrates court which does not exist, namely;
North Lincolnshire Magistrates(Remand/CJSSS/Summons Court 1)-LIBRA

The MoJ do not list or acknowledge this court exists.
There is no address or date on the front page. There are;
URN, Custody Record Number, DOB, Arrest Summons Number.

URN is filled in, CRN is blank, DOB is filled in, ASN is filled in.

There is no charge. It is listed seperately on the back with a prosecution contact address which has no title.

Thing is I was caught by a camera, never arrested, never went to police station, never arrested, never seen a plod, all dealt with by admin office using NIP which I completed months ago.

So how can an Arrest Summons exist?
I am required to attend Scunthorpe Magistrates Court which, apparently, North Lincs will use for their court sessions which is notified on a seperate page stuffed in the envelope.

I don't think any of this is legal but advice/opinions please.
sgtdixie
Confusing yes, legal yes.

I would have thought North Lincolnshire Magistrates is simply the new name for Scunthorpe Magistrates. I believe it is the only big town in N Lincs.

Do you deny the offence?
The Rookie
Does it really say Arrest summons?
peterguk
QUOTE (fossn @ Fri, 15 Nov 2013 - 16:32) *
It has a time to attend a magistrates court which does not exist, namely; North Lincolnshire Magistrates


North Lincolnshire Magistrates Court
Scunthorpe Court Centre
Corporation Road
Scunthorpe
DN15 6QB


QUOTE (fossn @ Fri, 15 Nov 2013 - 16:32) *
all dealt with by admin office using NIP which I completed months ago.


So you completed and returned the S.172 naming yourself as the driver?

Then what happened?
Logician
You have been told to attend Scunthorpe Magistrates' Court, Scunthorpe is in North Lincolnshire, there are no other Magistrates' Courts in North Lincolnshire, so I would go to Scunthorpe. Failure to attend will simply mean that the case goes ahead in your absence.
There is no such thing as an arrest summons AFAIK, possibly it means "arrest or summons number"
What was the alleged speed in what limit?
fossn
It clearly says Arrest Summons Number.
I am researching how a court comes into existence/gets jurisdiction. the MoJ insist the court does not exist and is not on their records.
Since completing the NIP I have awaited a summons. Then this thing arrived today.
Sgtdixie please provide references for your verdict of legal. Thanks.
fossn
I should also mention page 6 of the Postal Requisition which says I must read very important etc.

I have been charged with using a vehicle wihout the necessary documents ( I haven't, just speeding). The charge may also say I did not produce when required to plod or station of my choice ( What charge??).
The court would not expect me to plead guilty to both offences of, eg, using a vehicle without insurance and failing to produce insurance. ( only the speeding charge is on the PR, nothing else).
I am advised to produce docs if I have them, not to bring them to court cos they won't accept them blah blah blah.

Are they trying to extract the proverbial???
peterguk
QUOTE (fossn @ Fri, 15 Nov 2013 - 19:13) *
the MoJ insist the court does not exist and is not on their records.


So why do they list it on page 27 of their own document here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...-committees.pdf

rolleyes.gif
squaredeal
What speed in what speed limit did you admit being the driver to?
CuriousOrange
QUOTE (fossn @ Fri, 15 Nov 2013 - 16:32) *
I have received a postal requisition for speeding on the last day of the six months time limit....Thing is I was caught by a camera, never arrested, never went to police station, never arrested, never seen a plod, all dealt with by admin office using NIP which I completed months ago.
So you don't think there's any chance at all that it's got anything to do with your previous thread when you were stopped by the police and laughed at, six months ago?
peterguk
QUOTE (CuriousOrange @ Fri, 15 Nov 2013 - 19:53) *
QUOTE (fossn @ Fri, 15 Nov 2013 - 16:32) *
I have received a postal requisition for speeding on the last day of the six months time limit....Thing is I was caught by a camera, never arrested, never went to police station, never arrested, never seen a plod, all dealt with by admin office using NIP which I completed months ago.
So you don't think there's any chance at all that it's got anything to do with your previous thread when you were stopped by the police and laughed at, six months ago?


Doubt it - that was 2012.
southpaw82
QUOTE (fossn @ Fri, 15 Nov 2013 - 19:13) *
I am researching how a court comes into existence/gets jurisdiction.


The court [building] has no jurisdiction, obviously. The court [consisting of holders of a commission as a justice of the peace) does. Where the courts is physically situated isn't relevant to you.
sgtdixie
Please don't tell me this is a FOTL thing
southpaw82
QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Fri, 15 Nov 2013 - 20:29) *
Please don't tell me this is a FOTL thing


Maybe. I suspect though that the OP is hoping that if the court building isn't "official" they can't touch him rolleyes.gif
sgtdixie
QUOTE (fossn @ Fri, 15 Nov 2013 - 19:24) *
I should also mention page 6 of the Postal Requisition which says I must read very important etc.

I have been charged with using a vehicle wihout the necessary documents ( I haven't, just speeding). The charge may also say I did not produce when required to plod or station of my choice ( What charge??).
The court would not expect me to plead guilty to both offences of, eg, using a vehicle without insurance and failing to produce insurance. ( only the speeding charge is on the PR, nothing else).
I am advised to produce docs if I have them, not to bring them to court cos they won't accept them blah blah blah.

Are they trying to extract the proverbial???

Some confusion here. Did you produce your docs? Did you have insurance?
AntonyMMM
ASN = Arrest Summons Number. A reference number generated for most cases going through the system where someone is arrested OR summonsed. Perfectly normal and usual for this case to have one.
Danger-Mouse
Postal Requisition is just another way of getting someone to appear before a court on a certain date.
John4722
QUOTE (fossn @ Fri, 15 Nov 2013 - 19:24) *
I should also mention page 6 of the Postal Requisition which says I must read very important etc.

I have been charged with using a vehicle wihout the necessary documents ( I haven't, just speeding).



Just for reference, I recieved similar pages in a pack for my case a while ago... It looks like a bit of a cut-and-paste error.
However, I did complain about this 'false charge' whilst in court... the magistrate wasn't happy about its inclusion and the CPS looked a bit silly.
I wouldn't rely on that one error as a get out.

fossn
Thanks for all the feedback.

One more thing.

The charge on the back of the first page of the requisition is signed and dated 22/10/13.

Another enclosure is titled Notice To Defendant: Proof By Written Statement.
It is signed and dated the 14th Nov 2013.

The offence was committed 13/5/13.

Whats the ruling on the 6 months? The enclosure is a day late. I received it on the 15th which is the day after the written statement is dated. Unusually quick?

For the record I am not interested in FOTL. I just want procedure to be immaculate. I love loopholes.
AntonyMMM
The summons needs to be applied for (known as Laying Information) within 6 months of the offence.

If the charge is dated 22/10 it looks like it was in plenty of time.

There is no restriction on the dating of other documentation.
sgtdixie
QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Sun, 17 Nov 2013 - 11:49) *
The summons needs to be applied for (known as Laying Information) within 6 months of the offence.

If the charge is dated 22/10 it looks like it was in plenty of time.

There is no restriction on the dating of other documentation.

There is no application for a summons in a postal charge,
Logician
QUOTE (fossn @ Sun, 17 Nov 2013 - 11:42) *
Thanks for all the feedback. One more thing. The charge on the back of the first page of the requisition is signed and dated 22/10/13. Another enclosure is titled Notice To Defendant: Proof By Written Statement. It is signed and dated the 14th Nov 2013. The offence was committed 13/5/13. Whats the ruling on the 6 months? The enclosure is a day late. I received it on the 15th which is the day after the written statement is dated. Unusually quick? For the record I am not interested in FOTL. I just want procedure to be immaculate. I love loopholes.


The charge is within the 6 months time limit, the timing of the statement is not significant, that is simply the evidence the prosecution will rely on, it need to be sent to you in advance but not necessarily within 6 months.

Danger-Mouse
Even with a Postal Requisition the information still has to be laid before the court.
fossn
I'm confused by all the references to a summons.
Is a Postal Requisition a summons?
Does it have to follow all the rules applied to a summons in terms of format, procedure rules, etc?
southpaw82
A charge and requisition is not a summons. A summons is applied for by laying an information with the court and is issued by the court. See s. 1 of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980. A charge and requisition is issued by a designated public prosecutor under s. 29 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003. The prosecutor is required to inform the court (r. 7.2(3) CrPR) but does not need to lay an information, as the court doesn't then issue a summons. From reading s. 30(5) of the 2003 Act and r. 7.2(5) of the Rules it seems a charge and requisition needs to be issued within six months for a summary only offence. There are rules as to what must appear in the requisition.
Danger-Mouse
A Postal Requisition is not a Summons.

The information is still (electronically) transferred to the court, as per a charge, summons or requisition. Information still has to be with the court for summary offences within six months, same as a summons, difference being the court print a summons and is signed by court official. The police print a Requisition and its authorised/signed by CC.
fossn
So if the postal requisition isn't at court within 6 months its out of time?
What is the definition of issued?
If the officer signed the charge sheet but didn't post it is the issue date the signature date or the sent out date?
southpaw82
I'm not convinced it has to be with the court within six months, just issued. There is no definition of issued specifically, though one could interpret it to mean "sent by post". However, all of this is academic right now.
fossn
Southpaw. Please explain why it's academic.
sgtdixie
Because it arrived within 6 months as a question of fact.
Danger-Mouse
What I mean by this "Information still has to be with the court for summary offences within six months, same as a summons". The court has to be aware of the offence (like laying info for a summons) within six months, the actually court date could be seven months.

Has the OP actually told us the date of offence and date of the postal Req? (Apologies if I have missed it).

Edit ...... sorry missed "I have received a postal requisition for speeding on the last day of the six months time limit". What's the issue?
fossn
Sorry for confusion.
Offence committed 13/5/13.
PR received 15/11/13.

I have asked the court to confirm what date they received copy of PR.
If it is 15/11/13 or later am I to conclude that it is out of time?
sgtdixie
I will stand to be corrected but I was under the impression that this was a charge not a summons. As such it should be the date served which is 2 days after posting. When anyone is charged the courts must be notified but that can be outside of the 6 months. But the decision to charge is the Police' not the courts.

In this case I would say the 6 months is up midnight 13/11/13. There then comes the question (like an NIP out of time) when it was posted. If the OP could convince a court he received the charge outside the 6 months it should be statute barred.

So what is the date on the charge and have you got the envelops showing when it was posted. Can you also clarify if the charge could have arrived before the 15th such as you being on holiday.

As I say if someone can point to the regs and show I am wrong I would be obliged, but this was my understanding.
southpaw82
QUOTE (Danger-Mouse @ Mon, 18 Nov 2013 - 09:12) *
What I mean by this "Information still has to be with the court for summary offences within six months, same as a summons". The court has to be aware of the offence (like laying info for a summons) within six months, the actually court date could be seven months.


What is your authority for that?
Danger-Mouse
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 18 Nov 2013 - 17:33) *
QUOTE (Danger-Mouse @ Mon, 18 Nov 2013 - 09:12) *
What I mean by this "Information still has to be with the court for summary offences within six months, same as a summons". The court has to be aware of the offence (like laying info for a summons) within six months, the actually court date could be seven months.


What is your authority for that?


The training we had was as per my reply, also personal experience of having to prove to a Judge and Barrister that a post requisition had been "laid" before the magistrates court within the six month even thou the MC court date was approximately six wks after ... time limit was up.

Also see (hopefully it will work)

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=cbCcAQA...utput=html_text

Criminal Litigation Handbook 2013-14
Page 202
12.2.1



southpaw82
That's not replicated in the 2003 Act or the Rules though. The author seems to conflate a summons and requisition and arrives at a single six month time limit. By my reading of the Act and Rules, a requisition need only be issued within six months, the court can be informed after. Interesting to know whether a senior court has ruled on the matter.
fossn
Have spoken to the court and they say they received notification in October after the PR was signed.
However the statement in my bundle is datestamped signed 14th November.
I couldn't have received it any earlier than 15th as it was then sent to me.
The envelope (conveniently?) has no stamp just a preprinted frank for postage. It has not been datestamped by the PO at all, nothing, nada.
southpaw82
The witness statement? Is the date on that relevant?
sgtdixie
Something not right here. The requisition can't exist without the postal charge. So if the requisition was completed in October why has the OP only received it in mid November. Clearly the courts knew about it well within the 6 months.

I suspect this is one where the Op has 2 choices.
1 Plead guilty at the earliest opportunity to minimise the penalty
2 Plead not guilty and put the crown to proof the charge was laid within 6 months. Win and he gets off Scott free; lose and the penalty is much higher.

If the crown produce evidence the charge was posted (or if DM is correct the court notified) the OP is stuffed. Given the reference to October and assuming DM's trainers were right that seems likely.
Danger-Mouse
What date in October were the court notified?
What statement is dated 14th Nov?

A decision to prosecute could be made purely on a PNB entry but a witness statement would be required for sending with PR - possible reason for delay. Bearing in mind its a push of a button for the court to now be informed.

The job I referred to earlier the court was inform the day before the six months was up (date on PR) but the defendants were not served with the PR until four weeks later.
fossn
OK I'll repeat the info.
I received the PR and accompaniments on 15th November.
The offence was 13th May.
The second page of the PR contained the charge and was signed and dated 22nd October and sent to magistrates court.
A written statement accompanied the PR. It was dated 14th November.
The envelope it all arrived in had no datestamp at all.
However I couldn't have received the PR until the 15th at the earliest because of the statement enclosed with it dated 14th November which was postd so had to take at least a day to arrive.

So.... If the law says I have to get it within 6 months its out of time.
If the law just says the court have to get it in 6 months they did.

peterguk
QUOTE (fossn @ Tue, 19 Nov 2013 - 09:29) *
So.... If the law says I have to get it within 6 months its out of time.
If the law just says the court have to get it in 6 months they did.


AFAIK, it's thecourt that matters, not the accused.
The Rookie
The law requires proceedings to be commenced within 6 months, nowhere in the UK is that defined as you getting notification, so I believe it is in time.
southpaw82
QUOTE (fossn @ Tue, 19 Nov 2013 - 09:29) *
So.... If the law says I have to get it within 6 months its out of time.
If the law just says the court have to get it in 6 months they did.


I don't believe either of those statements is the case. So far as I can see, it only needs to be issued within six months.
fossn
Here's a legal opinion:

Thank you for your further question. Solicitors frequently see clients who receive a Postal Requisition a couple of months outside the 6 month time limit for Summary-Only offences. usually, but not exclusively, for motoring offences so whilst there is a 6 months limit, it is possible to be charged outside of this period, especially if by only 2 days as this would not be deemed as prejudicial to you (even though you may well disagree). The date at the bottom of the "Charges" box is usually within the last couple of days of the 6 months. There is one case that I have heard of with the charge date being on the 6 month anniversary of the offence. It appears the police then held on to the Requisition for at least 6 weeks before sending it to the Defendant. The court dates are then usually 3 months later. The consequence is obviously that the Defendant is not aware of the prosecution, sometimes until at least 7-8 months after the offence! The delay in informing the Defendant of the prosecution in cases where there is no justification (except for a backlog and insufficient resources) seems to fly in the face of the reasons behind the 6 month limit but as I say, a case can still be brought after this period. I hope this further assists.
southpaw82
Not being picky (well, I am) but mine was a legal opinion too wink.gif
sgtdixie
SP

My views were based on a somewhat poor memory of the briefing notes when all this came in and I have always conceded I may well be wrong. Have you a definitive source for this as I am sure it will come up again and it would be useful to actually refer to statute.
southpaw82

QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Tue, 19 Nov 2013 - 22:21) *
SP

My views were based on a somewhat poor memory of the briefing notes when all this came in and I have always conceded I may well be wrong. Have you a definitive source for this as I am sure it will come up again and it would be useful to actually refer to statute.


I'm not aware of a definitive source - that is, a decision of a higher court. What I've done is read the relevant Act and the Rules and the pivotal point in time and action I've found is the issuing of the charge and requisition. No time limit seems to explicitly attach to the receipt of the same, either by the defendant or the court. I think I cited the relevant sections and rules earlier if you fancy a look for yourself.
sgtdixie
Thanks; I'm obviously getting old and my memory is failing
southpaw82
I'm not going to claim I'm right but I do claim it as my opinion of the law pending such a decision.
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