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codedeveloper
Hi,

I posted a while back about my experience with CEL after overstaying in a retail car park by a few minutes (original thread here).

There were some very helpful responses to that thread, for which I am very grateful. I've now been through the MCMCC process, returned a statement of defence (assisted by a member here who no longer seems to be active?) and nominated a court for the hearing, which is set for December.

On calling the court today CEL HAVE paid the hearing fee.

As the original member - Concrete Jungle - who I was corresponding with no longer seems to be answering emails, I could really do with some advice on what to do next. Should I employ a solicitor etc?

Thanks.
kirkbyinfurnesslad
No you don't waste money on them!!!

Cel will most likely drop the case a week or few days before the hearing

Which court?
codedeveloper
QUOTE (kirkbyinfurnesslad @ Fri, 8 Nov 2013 - 18:30) *
No you don't waste money on them!!!

Cel will most likely drop the case a week or few days before the hearing

Which court?


Yes, that's what my instinct tells me too. Need to know what happens if they DO turn up though.

I have absolutely no intention of paying them a penny (unless a court hearing goes against me of course).

The last letter they sent (all scare tactics, I know) they were estimating costs of over £1500, including barrister fees!

Bury court btw.
ManxRed
They can't claim barrister fees in a small claims court.
Gan
Were the papers signed by Sethi Partnership or Ashley Cohen ?
codedeveloper
QUOTE (Gan @ Fri, 8 Nov 2013 - 19:05) *
Were the papers signed by Sethi Partnership or Ashley Cohen ?


The original claim was signed by Michael Schwartz, Sethi Partnership.

QUOTE (ManxRed @ Fri, 8 Nov 2013 - 18:42) *
They can't claim barrister fees in a small claims court.


That's good to know.
bama
keep all their paperwork safely. it sounds to me that it is fuel for some bonza complaints to various bodies.
though be good to see a(n anonymised) scan/pic)of the £1500 piece of bullshit letter
codedeveloper
QUOTE (bama @ Fri, 8 Nov 2013 - 19:19) *
keep all their paperwork safely. it sounds to me that it is fuel for some bonza complaints to various bodies.
though be good to see a(n anonymised) scan/pic)of the £1500 piece of bullshit letter


My apologies, I think I'm getting that figure mixed up from a sample CEL scan emailed to me by one of the members on here a few months back. I've just been going through my documentation getting it all in order and the last (highest) figure I can see them claiming is around £450. I'll keep looking though - could have sworn I received such an estimate.


Gan
They often send a draft claim for £425 (I think)

The real claims will usually be for £265 + £35 court fee + £50 solicitor

I've seen an example of their £1500+ letter in response to a defence where they argue that they're entitled to it because of the defendant's unreasonable behaviour by defending the claim

Sethi claims are quite enjoyable

I've sometimes written defences that question the solicitor fee because the claim is so incompetent
Mr Schwartz used to get quite annoyed when OPs asked him if he'd been paid the amount for writing it

It's not clear if Sethi are still acting for CEL or not
They've denied it when OPs have checked recently

I've sent you a message
kirkbyinfurnesslad
Another of my CEL cases got the usual letter dropping the case yesterday.

Only have one let now!!!

QUOTE (Gan @ Fri, 8 Nov 2013 - 19:08) *
They often send a draft claim for £425 (I think)

The real claims will usually be for £265 + £35 court fee + £50 solicitor

I've seen an example of their £1500+ letter in response to a defence where they argue that they're entitled to it because of the defendant's unreasonable behaviour by defending the claim

Sethi claims are quite enjoyable

I've sometimes written defences that question the solicitor fee because the claim is so incompetent
Mr Schwartz used to get quite annoyed when OPs asked him if he'd been paid the amount for writing it

It's not clear if Sethi are still acting for CEL or not
They've denied it when OPs have checked recently

I've sent you a message


They seemed to be working for them and off.

But i think this has now stopped
codedeveloper
QUOTE (Gan @ Fri, 8 Nov 2013 - 19:08) *
They often send a draft claim for £425 (I think)

The real claims will usually be for £265 + £35 court fee + £50 solicitor

I've seen an example of their £1500+ letter in response to a defence where they argue that they're entitled to it because of the defendant's unreasonable behaviour by defending the claim

Sethi claims are quite enjoyable

I've sometimes written defences that question the solicitor fee because the claim is so incompetent
Mr Schwartz used to get quite annoyed when OPs asked him if he'd been paid the amount for writing it

It's not clear if Sethi are still acting for CEL or not
They've denied it when OPs have checked recently

I've sent you a message


Thanks very much for your message, Gan. I'll send you an email in the morning.

QUOTE (kirkbyinfurnesslad @ Fri, 8 Nov 2013 - 19:14) *
Another of my CEL cases got the usual letter dropping the case yesterday.

Only have one let now!!!


Great to know smile.gif
codedeveloper
OK, just a quick update this morning.

I've now received by recorded delivery, a witness statement from Ashley Cohen (attempting to refute the points in my defence statement), a photocopy (not a photograph) of one of their signs and a new schedule of costs for £545.

The cover letter also includes an offer to settle for £150.

Salmosalaris
does the witness statement mention 3 debt collector letters ?
did you receive any ? ( nobody does )
Ive seen cases dropped by CEL only 2 days before the hearing .
Gan
I would very much like to see this

They don't have a snowball's chance of being awarded those costs
Do they by any chance include about £400 to prepare the witness statement because defending a claim is unreasonable behaviour ?

Good that you have their witness statement
Yours can now consist of a point-by-point dispute of each paragraph to add to the approach I sent you this morning
Jlc
QUOTE (codedeveloper @ Sat, 9 Nov 2013 - 11:35) *
The cover letter also includes an offer to settle for £150.

How generous. Sounds like a penalty to me... Keep pushing, see here.

They will not be able to claim anything like those amount of costs even if they did win, which is unlikely anyway. They are hoping you pay rather than go to hearing.

QUOTE (codedeveloper @ Sat, 9 Nov 2013 - 11:35) *
I've now received by recorded delivery, a witness statement from Ashley Cohen (attempting to refute the points in my defence statement), a photocopy (not a photograph) of one of their signs

I presume this is a sign at the material time - not their updated ones? (They appear to be moving from breach to contractual sum)
Gan
I've seen an Ashley Cohen witness statement where the consideration that they offered as their side of the contract was a promise not to bring a claim for trespass (on somebody else's land)

Salmosalaris
In a case I saw dropped last week their costs schedule was for over £1400-00 !
I hear Bury CC are aware of last minute withdrawals by CEL
kirkbyinfurnesslad
PM sent i would like to see this schedule of costs.

Seems to be their "new costs"
codedeveloper
QUOTE (Salmosalaris @ Sat, 9 Nov 2013 - 11:53) *
does the witness statement mention 3 debt collector letters ?
did you receive any ? ( nobody does )


Yes it does ... Point 7 states three letters were sent. They were not.

QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 9 Nov 2013 - 12:04) *
QUOTE (codedeveloper @ Sat, 9 Nov 2013 - 11:35) *
The cover letter also includes an offer to settle for £150.

How generous. Sounds like a penalty to me... Keep pushing, see here.

They will not be able to claim anything like those amount of costs even if they did win, which is unlikely anyway. They are hoping you pay rather than go to hearing.


That's what it sounds like to me too - they're trying one last attempt to get a payment from me. Isn't going to happen!

QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 9 Nov 2013 - 12:04) *
QUOTE (codedeveloper @ Sat, 9 Nov 2013 - 11:35) *
I've now received by recorded delivery, a witness statement from Ashley Cohen (attempting to refute the points in my defence statement), a photocopy (not a photograph) of one of their signs

I presume this is a sign at the material time - not their updated ones? (They appear to be moving from breach to contractual sum)


Yes, it's a photocopy of one of their signs - not an actual photo of a real sign in the car park. Haven't seen them present any evidence of the actual signs in place at the time ... which was TWO years ago now.

QUOTE (Salmosalaris @ Sat, 9 Nov 2013 - 12:30) *
In a case I saw dropped last week their costs schedule was for over £1400-00 !
I hear Bury CC are aware of last minute withdrawals by CEL


When I telephoned the court, I was told that they'd seen most cases being discontinued or settled before the hearing. Disgusting to think that quite a few people are probably intimidated into finally paying up sad.gif

QUOTE (kirkbyinfurnesslad @ Sat, 9 Nov 2013 - 13:43) *
PM sent i would like to see this schedule of costs.

Seems to be their "new costs"


Thanks for your message. I've emailed you smile.gif
bama
I wouldn't mind seeing their 'costs'
and their Witness Statement
matt285
QUOTE (codedeveloper @ Sat, 9 Nov 2013 - 16:50) *
When I telephoned the court, I was told that they'd seen most cases being discontinued or settled before the hearing. Disgusting to think that quite a few people are probably intimidated into finally paying up sad.gif


Super - I would send a letter to the court referencing this phone call and suggesting to the District Judge to seriously consider the issue of a Civil Restraint Order against this vexatious litigant who issues countless unsubstantiated and meritless claims and thus wastes significant amounts of court time and resource (and the same on the defendant's side), only to withdraw them all before the hearing.

I'm surprised that no-one in this court is getting ****** off enough about them yet...?
Gan
Claims getting as far as a judge are quite rare
The court is seen as a last resort if the parties can't reach a settlement in the knowledge that somebody is otherwise going to settle it for them

According to an FOI last year, PPCs issued a total of 845 claims in 2011 of which only 49 reached a hearing

CEL claims are so over-the-top that it's more likely that victims will fight

Parking Eye issue about 2000 a month (note 2011 annual figure)
Given the effort and stress of fighting them to save about £165, most victims will cave in when they receive the claim

This includes, I suspect, a majority of defendants that have received help here
It's a source of intense frustration for advisers and a reason that "read some threads" is becoming a more common response than "I've sent you a PM"

codedeveloper
I had another thought about this today.

When CEL sent out their first "parking contravention Enforcement notice" two years ago, the document stated "We have photographic evidence of this incident. If you require a copy of this evidence, please send a cheque for £10.00..." etc.

Now having read through the notice of allocation to the small claims track again today, the document from the CC states ...

Para. 6: "Each party must deliver to the other party and to the court office copies of all documents on which that party intends to rely at the hearing no later than fourteen days before the hearing."

AND

Para. 8: "The judge may refuse to consider a document or take it into account if a copy has not been sent to the other party as required by this order."

Yet the witness statement I received from CEL yesterday and the "evidence" bundle attached did not contain this alleged photographic ANPR evidence.

Presumably, this means that if I or the court do not receive a copy of the photographic evidence fourteen days before the hearing in December, that evidence would be inadmissible?

Also, does anyone know if ANPR photographic evidence has ever been supplied from one of their car parks?
Gan
My personal view is that it would be much better NOT to raise this issue

You already have at least three very strong points that destroy their witness statement
If it gets to a hearing, you want to make sure that in the limited time available the judge focuses on them and not any time-wasting weak arguments

You haven't disputed the timings so the absence of photographs hasn't put you at any disadvantage

A good rule to follow in any communication is :

Say clearly what needs to be said AND NOTHING MORE

Anything else can be twisted against you or used as a diversion from the real issues by a company with a lot of practice at misrepresenting documents

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