Sorry if they are not in the right order, my computer was struggling a bit.
The end of the bay (it's big enough for 5ish cars) has been tarmac'd over a bit, is it still compliant? Are there any other issues?
any help appreciated, thanks
Full Version: PCN Maidstone BC. Are these all in order?
Sorry if they are not in the right order, my computer was struggling a bit.
The end of the bay (it's big enough for 5ish cars) has been tarmac'd over a bit, is it still compliant? Are there any other issues?
any help appreciated, thanks
You have cropped your images of the PCN.
It is only necessary to redact / obscure your name & address where present, the PCN number and the vehicle reg. Please leave visible all time, date, location and Council info.
Please correct and re-post your photos. And the right way up, flat and in focus please.
And do you have the required "N1" permit?
or
Did you over stay the two hours?
It is only necessary to redact / obscure your name & address where present, the PCN number and the vehicle reg. Please leave visible all time, date, location and Council info.
Please correct and re-post your photos. And the right way up, flat and in focus please.
And do you have the required "N1" permit?
or
Did you over stay the two hours?
Thanks for your reply.
The PNC's aren't cropped they just go over two photos as they don't fit into one. I will try to turn the picture the right way, but my pc is going really slow at the moment and doesn't want to do anything!
I was parked there for over the 2 hours, I don't have a permit.
Sorry if you feel I covered too much up, I was merely following Pepipoo Advice as suggested here :
When asked to post a scan of a document you will usually be advised to "wash" or "scrub" it. What this means is that before you post it you should remove any details that would enable whoever issued the document to connect it to you. The reason is fairly obvious: posts in internet forums can be viewed by anyone, including people (e.g. the police, "safety camera" partnerships, private parking companies, councils) who you may not want to read posts discussing your options, what you did (or didn't) do, and what action you intend to take!
Peoples' initial reaction is often that this is simple - remove details like your name, address, registration mark and and driving licence number and the job's done. However the person or organisation issuing the document has all the information about it that you do; can they fill in the blanks using that knowledge? You need to consider a lot more than those obvious details, including:
How many similar documents might they have sent out with the same details as you've left visible on yours? For example, there will probably only be a handful of parking tickets issued for Wellington Car Park in Basingstoke on 19 February 2009; leave those details in your post and it will be easy to work out which ticket is yours.
How much time and effort might they put into identifying you? A private parking company after a £50 "fine" probably wouldn't spend more than a few minutes sorting through the "possibles", whereas an SCP with plenty of taxpayers' money to waste might think a couple of days sorting through hundreds of NIPs is worthwhile.
Do you understand what all the codes in the document mean? That apparently random 7-digit number might mean nothing to you, but it could be a unique reference number that would identify you to whoever came up with it.
Don't forget any payment slips! That helpful tear-off Giro payment slip almost certainly has unique identifiers on it.
Don't just focus on individual details. If there are several precise details in the document then individually they may mean nothing, but combined they might be unique to you. Even a sequence of events could be unique enough to allow your case to be located in the pile!
The PNC's aren't cropped they just go over two photos as they don't fit into one. I will try to turn the picture the right way, but my pc is going really slow at the moment and doesn't want to do anything!
I was parked there for over the 2 hours, I don't have a permit.
Sorry if you feel I covered too much up, I was merely following Pepipoo Advice as suggested here :
When asked to post a scan of a document you will usually be advised to "wash" or "scrub" it. What this means is that before you post it you should remove any details that would enable whoever issued the document to connect it to you. The reason is fairly obvious: posts in internet forums can be viewed by anyone, including people (e.g. the police, "safety camera" partnerships, private parking companies, councils) who you may not want to read posts discussing your options, what you did (or didn't) do, and what action you intend to take!
Peoples' initial reaction is often that this is simple - remove details like your name, address, registration mark and and driving licence number and the job's done. However the person or organisation issuing the document has all the information about it that you do; can they fill in the blanks using that knowledge? You need to consider a lot more than those obvious details, including:
How many similar documents might they have sent out with the same details as you've left visible on yours? For example, there will probably only be a handful of parking tickets issued for Wellington Car Park in Basingstoke on 19 February 2009; leave those details in your post and it will be easy to work out which ticket is yours.
How much time and effort might they put into identifying you? A private parking company after a £50 "fine" probably wouldn't spend more than a few minutes sorting through the "possibles", whereas an SCP with plenty of taxpayers' money to waste might think a couple of days sorting through hundreds of NIPs is worthwhile.
Do you understand what all the codes in the document mean? That apparently random 7-digit number might mean nothing to you, but it could be a unique reference number that would identify you to whoever came up with it.
Don't forget any payment slips! That helpful tear-off Giro payment slip almost certainly has unique identifiers on it.
Don't just focus on individual details. If there are several precise details in the document then individually they may mean nothing, but combined they might be unique to you. Even a sequence of events could be unique enough to allow your case to be located in the pile!
Sideways, the PCN looks defective.
A PCN is required to include the following information:
Can you find the highlighted info in the PCN?
A PCN is required to include the following information:
QUOTE
2) A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information—
(a)that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and
(b)that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—
(i)those representations will be considered;
(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.
(a)that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and
(b)that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—
(i)those representations will be considered;
(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.
Can you find the highlighted info in the PCN?
Payment within???????
Also, have they lopped a day off the timescale by inserting "including the day of service"?
Contents of a penalty charge notice served under regulation 9
1. A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it by regulation 3(2) of the Representations and Appeals Regulations, state—
(a)the date on which the notice is served;
(b)the name of the enforcement authority;
©the registration mark of the vehicle involved in the alleged contravention;
(d)the date and the time at which the alleged contravention occurred;
(e)the grounds on which the civil enforcement officer serving the notice believes that a penalty charge is payable;
(f)the amount of the penalty charge;
(g)that the penalty charge must be paid not later than the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the penalty charge notice was served;
(h)that if the penalty charge is paid not later than the last day of the period of 14 days beginning with the date on which the notice is served, the penalty charge will be reduced by the amount of any applicable discount;
(i)the manner in which the penalty charge must be paid; and
(j)that if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the period of 28 days referred to in subparagraph (g), a notice to owner may be served by the enforcement authority on the owner of the vehicle.
Also, have they lopped a day off the timescale by inserting "including the day of service"?
Contents of a penalty charge notice served under regulation 9
1. A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it by regulation 3(2) of the Representations and Appeals Regulations, state—
(a)the date on which the notice is served;
(b)the name of the enforcement authority;
©the registration mark of the vehicle involved in the alleged contravention;
(d)the date and the time at which the alleged contravention occurred;
(e)the grounds on which the civil enforcement officer serving the notice believes that a penalty charge is payable;
(f)the amount of the penalty charge;
(g)that the penalty charge must be paid not later than the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the penalty charge notice was served;
(h)that if the penalty charge is paid not later than the last day of the period of 14 days beginning with the date on which the notice is served, the penalty charge will be reduced by the amount of any applicable discount;
(i)the manner in which the penalty charge must be paid; and
(j)that if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the period of 28 days referred to in subparagraph (g), a notice to owner may be served by the enforcement authority on the owner of the vehicle.
I know one looks cropped but it isn't you can just about read the last bit which says Maidstone Borough Council, after that it finishes
You've not answered my question.
Essentially, you are bang-to-rights on the contravention itself, but as others have pointed out, there is legally mandated information missing from the PCN. This means the PCN is void and unenforceable.
The worst omission is that highlighted by HCA, because if you had made an informal challenge, then received a NtO "out of the blue" without having first received a reply to your informal challenge, you might hold off doing anything about the NtO, (like appealing), and lose the right to appeal. That's why the legislation has these things mandated; to protect the recipient of a PCN from being mislead. SO you need to appeal on the basis that the PCN is legally unenforceable due to absence of legally mandated information. Of course we are assuming you have posted all of the PCN.
The worst omission is that highlighted by HCA, because if you had made an informal challenge, then received a NtO "out of the blue" without having first received a reply to your informal challenge, you might hold off doing anything about the NtO, (like appealing), and lose the right to appeal. That's why the legislation has these things mandated; to protect the recipient of a PCN from being mislead. SO you need to appeal on the basis that the PCN is legally unenforceable due to absence of legally mandated information. Of course we are assuming you have posted all of the PCN.
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 10 Oct 2013 - 20:28) 
You've not answered my question.
Sorry I missed your question as I was on my way out of the door. I can't see that on there anywhere. I haave reuploaded the pictures the right way (sorry about that) just in case anyone else can see it on there?
Thanks for all your help guys. Do you think it is best to reply stating all the things wrong or concentrate on just the one thing?
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 10 Oct 2013 - 20:32)
Essentially, you are bang-to-rights on the contravention itself, but as others have pointed out, there is legally mandated information missing from the PCN. This means the PCN is void and unenforceable.
...... Of course we are assuming you have posted all of the PCN.
...... Of course we are assuming you have posted all of the PCN.
I have definitely posted all of both sides of the PCN. Thanks for all of your help
Ok, so is this an ok response to them:
I wish to appeal the PCN number XXXXXXX on the grounds that there is legally mandated information missing from the PCN. This renders the PCN void and unenforceable, for the following reasons:
A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information—
(a)that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and
(b)that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—
(i)those representations will be considered;
(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.
The information in bold above is omitted from this PCN, therefore rendering it void. In addition to this;
A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it by regulation 3(2) of the Representations and Appeals Regulations, state—
(a)the date on which the notice is served;
(b)the name of the enforcement authority;
©the registration mark of the vehicle involved in the alleged contravention;
(d)the date and the time at which the alleged contravention occurred;
(e)the grounds on which the civil enforcement officer serving the notice believes that a penalty charge is payable;
(f)the amount of the penalty charge;
(g)that the penalty charge must be paid not later than the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the penalty charge notice was served;
(h)that if the penalty charge is paid not later than the last day of the period of 14 days beginning with the date on which the notice is served, the penalty charge will be reduced by the amount of any applicable discount;
(i)the manner in which the penalty charge must be paid; and
(j)that if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the period of 28 days referred to in subparagraph (g), a notice to owner may be served by the enforcement authority on the owner of the vehicle.
By stating thou have that “...is now payable within 28 days including day of service/issue” , you have indicated that I have one day less than my mandated by law timeframe in which to pay/challenge this PCN.
In addition to this the road markings of the bay do not comply with the correct standards, as they have been partially tarmac’d over. Please see the attached photo.
As such I kindly request that you cancel this PCN.
Regards,
I wish to appeal the PCN number XXXXXXX on the grounds that there is legally mandated information missing from the PCN. This renders the PCN void and unenforceable, for the following reasons:
A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information—
(a)that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and
(b)that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—
(i)those representations will be considered;
(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.
The information in bold above is omitted from this PCN, therefore rendering it void. In addition to this;
A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it by regulation 3(2) of the Representations and Appeals Regulations, state—
(a)the date on which the notice is served;
(b)the name of the enforcement authority;
©the registration mark of the vehicle involved in the alleged contravention;
(d)the date and the time at which the alleged contravention occurred;
(e)the grounds on which the civil enforcement officer serving the notice believes that a penalty charge is payable;
(f)the amount of the penalty charge;
(g)that the penalty charge must be paid not later than the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the penalty charge notice was served;
(h)that if the penalty charge is paid not later than the last day of the period of 14 days beginning with the date on which the notice is served, the penalty charge will be reduced by the amount of any applicable discount;
(i)the manner in which the penalty charge must be paid; and
(j)that if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the period of 28 days referred to in subparagraph (g), a notice to owner may be served by the enforcement authority on the owner of the vehicle.
By stating thou have that “...is now payable within 28 days including day of service/issue” , you have indicated that I have one day less than my mandated by law timeframe in which to pay/challenge this PCN.
In addition to this the road markings of the bay do not comply with the correct standards, as they have been partially tarmac’d over. Please see the attached photo.
As such I kindly request that you cancel this PCN.
Regards,
Take out those parts of the regs which are not in dispute - they merely clutter the challenge.
Right, I will do thanks
Hi All,
Just received a reply back from Maidstone Borough Council.Typically they have refused to cancel the ticket:
Thank you for your correspondence relating to your challenge against penalty charge notice MD25063875. In accordance with the regulations and taking into account any mitigating circumstances, your case has been assessed in accordance with the Kent guidance policy (document can be viewed on the following link):
<http://www.maidstone.gov.uk/residents/parking-and-streets/parking-tickets>
I am satisfied that the above penalty charge notice was issued correctly and my reasons for rejecting your request to have the notice waived are set out below.
Your comments relating to the legal compliance of the penalty change notice have been considered by the Councils legal team in accordance with the requirements of the legislation.
It is considered that the penalty charge notice fully meets the requirements of the legislation and that no procedural impropriety is evident in this case.
Further information on the legal process can be found at; <http://www.patrol-uk.info/site/index.php> and <http://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/site/index.php>
Your mitigating circumstances have been taken into consideration but no grounds for cancellation have been established on this occasion. With regard to your comments regarding the markings, the lines and signs located in Sandling Road have been verified and I am able to confirm that the council consider the restrictions meet the statutory requirements of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002. The fact the lines are not in perfect condition does not prevent them from being enforced when they are clearly in place. It is clearly a question of fact and degree that Councils cannot be expected to maintain the condition of lines at all times. Lines also become worn and faded for a number of reasons however; they remain enforceable if the motorist upon enquiry is obliged to say to their self that despite the imperfection it is clear that the restriction remains in place. The penalty charge notice was therefore issued correctly and remains outstanding.
YOU NOW HAVE TWO OPTIONS
You may pay the discounted rate of £25.00 if received within 14 days from the date of this letter, after which the full fee of £50.00 will be payable. If you choose this option you will lose the right to appeal to the Independent Parking Adjudicators and the matter will be closed. The reduced fee will no longer apply after this date.
If you wish to make payment, credit/debit card payments can be made by calling our automated 24 hour payment line 01622 602544. Alternatively payments can be made either via the internet by visiting www.maidstone.gov.uk <http://www.maidstone.gov.uk> and following the on-line instructions or in person at:
Maidstone Borough Council
Maidstone Gateway Open: Monday to Friday - 08:30 to 17:30
King Street Late evening Thursday until 19:00
Maidstone Saturday - 09:00 to 13:00
Kent
If you wish to appeal to the Independent Adjudicators you must wait until the registered keeper of the vehicle receives a Notice to Owner. This will be dispatched approximately 28 days after the penalty charge notice was issued. You will then have a maximum of 28 days to make full payment or representation in writing to this office, which under a statutory obligation we have to consider. There is no right of appeal to the Adjudicators before the Notice to Owner is issued. The Traffic Penalty Tribunal have launched a website for inquiries www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk <http://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk>, which may be useful.
Failure to make representation or full payment to this office within 28 days of the Notice to Owner will result in the issue of a Charge Certificate, which increases the charge by 50%. There is no right to appeal to the Adjudicators after the council issues a Charge Certificate.
What do people think? Should I cut my losses or fight (I am always up for a fight if I have a realistic chance of winning).
I have no idea what mitigating circumstances they are talking about as all I put in my letter was a shortened version of the response I posted above
Just received a reply back from Maidstone Borough Council.Typically they have refused to cancel the ticket:
Thank you for your correspondence relating to your challenge against penalty charge notice MD25063875. In accordance with the regulations and taking into account any mitigating circumstances, your case has been assessed in accordance with the Kent guidance policy (document can be viewed on the following link):
<http://www.maidstone.gov.uk/residents/parking-and-streets/parking-tickets>
I am satisfied that the above penalty charge notice was issued correctly and my reasons for rejecting your request to have the notice waived are set out below.
Your comments relating to the legal compliance of the penalty change notice have been considered by the Councils legal team in accordance with the requirements of the legislation.
It is considered that the penalty charge notice fully meets the requirements of the legislation and that no procedural impropriety is evident in this case.
Further information on the legal process can be found at; <http://www.patrol-uk.info/site/index.php> and <http://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/site/index.php>
Your mitigating circumstances have been taken into consideration but no grounds for cancellation have been established on this occasion. With regard to your comments regarding the markings, the lines and signs located in Sandling Road have been verified and I am able to confirm that the council consider the restrictions meet the statutory requirements of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002. The fact the lines are not in perfect condition does not prevent them from being enforced when they are clearly in place. It is clearly a question of fact and degree that Councils cannot be expected to maintain the condition of lines at all times. Lines also become worn and faded for a number of reasons however; they remain enforceable if the motorist upon enquiry is obliged to say to their self that despite the imperfection it is clear that the restriction remains in place. The penalty charge notice was therefore issued correctly and remains outstanding.
YOU NOW HAVE TWO OPTIONS
You may pay the discounted rate of £25.00 if received within 14 days from the date of this letter, after which the full fee of £50.00 will be payable. If you choose this option you will lose the right to appeal to the Independent Parking Adjudicators and the matter will be closed. The reduced fee will no longer apply after this date.
If you wish to make payment, credit/debit card payments can be made by calling our automated 24 hour payment line 01622 602544. Alternatively payments can be made either via the internet by visiting www.maidstone.gov.uk <http://www.maidstone.gov.uk> and following the on-line instructions or in person at:
Maidstone Borough Council
Maidstone Gateway Open: Monday to Friday - 08:30 to 17:30
King Street Late evening Thursday until 19:00
Maidstone Saturday - 09:00 to 13:00
Kent
If you wish to appeal to the Independent Adjudicators you must wait until the registered keeper of the vehicle receives a Notice to Owner. This will be dispatched approximately 28 days after the penalty charge notice was issued. You will then have a maximum of 28 days to make full payment or representation in writing to this office, which under a statutory obligation we have to consider. There is no right of appeal to the Adjudicators before the Notice to Owner is issued. The Traffic Penalty Tribunal have launched a website for inquiries www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk <http://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk>, which may be useful.
Failure to make representation or full payment to this office within 28 days of the Notice to Owner will result in the issue of a Charge Certificate, which increases the charge by 50%. There is no right to appeal to the Adjudicators after the council issues a Charge Certificate.
What do people think? Should I cut my losses or fight (I am always up for a fight if I have a realistic chance of winning).
I have no idea what mitigating circumstances they are talking about as all I put in my letter was a shortened version of the response I posted above
anyone?
Standard 'computer says no' response at this stage - most of it a template letter. If you read pretty much ANY thread on here you will see this is the irksome stage you have to get past, if you want to win.
So as it says in the template rejection, you simply wait for the NTO and then the keeper (you again?) can formally appeal with the same words again plus anything else that strikes you or us when you post a pic of the NTO.
While you are waiting read a few other threads at random that involve an appeal to a windscreen ticket and you will see that EVERYONE is turned down, and it means diddly squat!
So as it says in the template rejection, you simply wait for the NTO and then the keeper (you again?) can formally appeal with the same words again plus anything else that strikes you or us when you post a pic of the NTO.
While you are waiting read a few other threads at random that involve an appeal to a windscreen ticket and you will see that EVERYONE is turned down, and it means diddly squat!
Thanks School run mum. I#ve actually successfully appealed 3 PCN's with help from here and must have been lucky because I have never had to go to an appeal. This is a company lease car so I suppose it will take a while to get the NTO. I shall sit back, relaxx and wait.
QUOTE
This is a company lease car so I suppose it will take a while to get the NTO. I shall sit back, relaxx and wait.
Are you certain the Lease co. doesn't have a policy just to pay these and then have your company deduct them from pay? Are you sure this will ever be passed to you to appeal, seeing as it's the responsibility of the registered keeper, not the driver.
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