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Santatiger
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - September 2013
Date of the NIP: - 4 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 5 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - at A1058 COAST ROAD/ BENFIELD ROAD, NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 3
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - slowed down for the camera early as I always do and had a brain fart (my mind was on other things) my speed crept up to 57 in a 50 limit. I have only held my licence for 1 year although I have been driving for 20, my licence will be revoked if I am found guilty. I was thinking of seeing what evidence the police have photos, certificate for the truvelo... and as I have had an accident and cannot use my writing hand I was going to ask my father to fill in my NIP for me leaving the signiture box blank

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Thu, 03 Oct 2013 13:57:22 +0000
peterguk
Going unsigned, as in the S.172, in England or Wales will cost you 6 points and hefty fine.

Scotland is different.

Silly games or tricks will also result in a similar outcome.

You're not entitled to any evidence at this stage although you admit to the offence in any case.
Pete D
"only held my licence for 1 year although I have been driving for 20" Would you like to explain that. 57 in a 50 would most probably get you a speed awareness course and no points. You appear a bit confused. Pete D
Kickaha
That speed should result in a speed awareness course offer (as long as you have not done one in the last 3 years), at worse it will be 3 points so unless you have points already you will not lose your licence.

Note that the offer of a course is discretionary, and if you p155 about they may not offer it.

Your call.
andy_foster
In law a signature is any mark or writing intended to be taken as a signature. The fact that you are unable to make your usual signature with your writing hand, does not prevent you from making a signature.
Santatiger
I am unable to take a speed awareness course as I have already been on one in January... sorry for omitting this. I have held my provisional licence for 20 years, I have a condition which makes my averse to taking tests any tests, I had to take prescribed medication in order to get through my test the thought of having to go through all again is worrying to say the least ohmy.gif
peterguk
As stated, you'll receive 3 points and £100 fine, which will result in your licence being revoked by DVLA.
Pete D
Sorry to hear that. Unfortunately 3 points are heading your way and an automatic revokation of your licence. Going unsigned is not an option and being charged for failing to furnish 6 points and a large fine would give you an MS90 on your licence and the insurance companies would eat you alive.
I suggest you find a good Hypnotherapist to assist with your condition to prepare you for a re-test.
You could try the court, if your condition is documented they they may ban you for 28 days or so, but they are not advised to so when revokation is the outcome. Pete D
Santatiger
cheers Pete! It's what I thought, I will go down the route of going to court rather than taking the fixed penalty to delay the outcome, and maybes the certificate for the camera may be old?
Jlc
It's the date of offence that counts - you can't 'delay' the outcome.
BaggieBoy
He can't change the outcome, but taking it to court will almost delay it. If he accepts the FP then licence will likely be revoked in weeks, however it it goes to court it could be months before the case is heard.
Jlc
QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 16:24) *
He can't change the outcome, but taking it to court will almost delay it. If he accepts the FP then licence will likely be revoked in weeks, however it it goes to court it could be months before the case is heard.

Yes, fair point. (I was possibly answering something that wasn't asked - it's just that some OP's assume it's the date of prosecution rather than offence for totting/revocation)
AntonyMMM
QUOTE (Santatiger @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 16:16) *
.... and maybes the certificate for the camera may be old?


Very unlikely , and won't even be looked at /considered unless you enter a plea of Not Guilty
peterguk
QUOTE (Santatiger @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 16:16) *
I will go down the route of going to court rather than taking the fixed penalty to delay the outcome, and maybes the certificate for the camera may be old?


As stated, the outcome won't change - it's the date of offence that matters as far as revokation is concerened.

And also as stated, you won't get to see the certificate unless you plead not guilty.

You are probably better off preparing yourself for a retest since it appears that is the going to be the end result.
kommando
If you have a condition making you adverse to taking tests why is a court appearance and taking 3 points followed by revocation and retest preferable to filling in a form taking 3 points followed by revocation and retest. You are having the retest regardless and is the court appearance worth the delay.
Santatiger
QUOTE (kommando @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 17:23) *
If you have a condition making you adverse to taking tests why is a court appearance and taking 3 points followed by revocation and retest preferable to filling in a form taking 3 points followed by revocation and retest. You are having the retest regardless and is the court appearance worth the delay.
If I go not guilty stating that I genuinely feel I was driving at the correct speed which I thought I was, then the calibration certificate will be produced as evidence? is there any way of seeing this before a case is heard? I always thought evidence has to be presented to all parties before a court case otherwise they cant use it in court?
Aretnap
They do have to provide you with the evidence they're relying in, but only after you enter a plea because (in theory) you base your plea on whether you think you committed the offence, not on whether you think they have enough evidence to convict you.

Rejecting the fixed penalty will mean getting a larger fine than £100 (probably around half your weekly income) and costs (around £85 for a guilty plea, considerably more for a conviction after a not guilty plea - the CPS would ask for £625 as a starting point). You can always change your plea after you see the evidence, but you won't get the full discount off the fine, and the costs will still be higher than if you plead guilty ASAP.

It's very unlikely that they won't be able to produce an up to date calibration certificate - in the distant past a few people got off when they couldn't, and as a result they tightened up their procedures. And even if they can't produce an up to date certificate it's not an automatic get-off. They can try to persuade the court that the reading is reliable anyway, and the magistrates may or may not decide that it is.
peterguk
QUOTE (Santatiger @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 18:18) *
If I go not guilty stating that I genuinely feel I was driving at the correct speed which I thought I was, then the calibration certificate will be produced as evidence? is there any way of seeing this before a case is heard? I always thought evidence has to be presented to all parties before a court case otherwise they cant use it in court?


If you decline the CoFPN, you will be summonsed. The summons will include evidence, possibly including the calibration certificate. Chances of an issue with the cert? Next to none. Then your guilty plea will result in 3 points, increased fine, costs, victim surcharge and......... revokation.

As i said, you're better off preparing to retake your test.
sgtdixie
QUOTE (Santatiger @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 18:18) *
If I go not guilty stating that I genuinely feel I was driving at the correct speed which I thought I was, then the calibration certificate will be produced as evidence? is there any way of seeing this before a case is heard? I always thought evidence has to be presented to all parties before a court case otherwise they cant use it in court?


Not necessarily. You can ask for the cert but it is not in itself essential for the prosecution. Simply saying you were not speeding as a defence will fail. In order to succeed you will need to introduce sufficient doubt that the court finds and opinion and a reading from an approved device is not to be relied upon.

You appear not to disagree with thr recorded speed in your OP. Based on this I suggest accepting the COFP and start sorting a new test. Going to court with the much higher fine and costs just to put off the inevitable will merely prolong the agony. I would also ask you to consider after 20 years with a provisional that to be caught speeding 3 times in your 1st year may suggest you may not be ready for a full licence.

Is it worth all the stress?
Santatiger
QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 19:04) *
QUOTE (Santatiger @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 18:18) *
If I go not guilty stating that I genuinely feel I was driving at the correct speed which I thought I was, then the calibration certificate will be produced as evidence? is there any way of seeing this before a case is heard? I always thought evidence has to be presented to all parties before a court case otherwise they cant use it in court?


Not necessarily. You can ask for the cert but it is not in itself essential for the prosecution. Simply saying you were not speeding as a defence will fail. In order to succeed you will need to introduce sufficient doubt that the court finds and opinion and a reading from an approved device is not to be relied upon.

You appear not to disagree with thr recorded speed in your OP. Based on this I suggest accepting the COFP and start sorting a new test. Going to court with the much higher fine and costs just to put off the inevitable will merely prolong the agony. I would also ask you to consider after 20 years with a provisional that to be caught speeding 3 times in your 1st year may suggest you may not be ready for a full licence.

Is it worth all the stress?

I have only been caught speeding twice and that is after 20 years of driving, I have 7 years no claims. I have had health issues most of my life and decided to make an effort to show my son the "right" way to go, I work as a self employed delivery driver (unemployment being the spur to pass my test for work) so not only do I loose my licence but my job, self respect, my son will also suffer. Many will say this is my own fault and I agree to a point. I was doing 57 on a 3 lane carrigeway at 8pm at night with no other cars about. I am resigned to the fact of the most likely outcome. I disagree with the costs involved in having to go through everything again and believe it is only a money making exercise.
peterguk
QUOTE (Santatiger @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 19:57) *
believe it is only a money making exercise.


Many would suggest that anyone picking up 3 speeding offences in their first 2 years of (unsupervised) driving might benefit from retaking their test. Hence the legislation.
Santatiger
QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 20:20) *
QUOTE (Santatiger @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 19:57) *
believe it is only a money making exercise.


Many would suggest that anyone picking up 3 speeding offences in their first 2 years of (unsupervised) driving might benefit from retaking their test. Hence the legislation.

this is only my 2nd offence for speeding and I have been driving for 20 years unsupervised... a licence does not make you a good or bad driver it only shows you can pass a test which is nowhere near like driving in the real world... As I have said I am resigned to my fate and will fork out the monies to the corrupt system re-take my test, pass and only learn in the process to make as much money through a claim as possible in future..
peterguk
QUOTE (Santatiger @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 20:36) *
this is only my 2nd offence for speeding and I have been driving for 20 years unsupervised


OK, in the interests of pedancy, 2 speeding offences (SAC for one, and this one) plus another endorseable offence.

If you've had your full car DL for less than 2 years, i fail to understand how you've been driving unsupervised for 20 years. wacko.gif
Santatiger
QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 20:55) *
QUOTE (Santatiger @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 20:36) *
this is only my 2nd offence for speeding and I have been driving for 20 years unsupervised


OK, in the interests of pedancy, 2 speeding offences (SAC for one, and this one) plus another endorseable offence.

If you've had your full car DL for less than 2 years, i fail to understand how you've been driving unsupervised for 20 years. wacko.gif

I mentioned earlier in the thread that part of my health condition makes taking tests unbearable. I am an accomplished driver and have drove for 18 years without incident. I could easily pass my theory and practical knowing it was just for fun... but under test and just thinking about it makes my stomach churn my heart pound and I freeze... I am resigned to having to go through the rigmarole that I have undertook previously, I would rather not. If the law was changed again to make every driver have to re-apply, retake both theory and practical tests regardless of when they originally passed do you think that would be fairer for all road users? I know most people pre theory test would fail a re-test without spending lots of money in the process... I presume all people on here have broke the law, otherwise why be here? Driving otherwise in accordance with a licence holds the same punishment as a speeding fine so in the eyes of the law any wrongdoing on my part for driving without a licence is exactly the same as speeding and yes I was insured and always have been when driving.
peterguk
QUOTE (Santatiger @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 21:14) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 20:55) *
QUOTE (Santatiger @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 20:36) *
this is only my 2nd offence for speeding and I have been driving for 20 years unsupervised


OK, in the interests of pedancy, 2 speeding offences (SAC for one, and this one) plus another endorseable offence.

If you've had your full car DL for less than 2 years, i fail to understand how you've been driving unsupervised for 20 years. wacko.gif

I have been driving for 20 years unsupervised

I ... have drove for 18 years without incident.


Unlawfully.
BaggieBoy
You didn't answer the question, how can you claim to have driven for (18) years unsupervised if you hadn't passed a test?
peterguk
QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 21:17) *
You didn't answer the question, how can you claim to have driven for (18) years unsupervised if you hadn't passed a test?


See my post above.
Santatiger
QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 21:17) *
QUOTE (Santatiger @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 21:14) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 20:55) *
QUOTE (Santatiger @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 20:36) *
this is only my 2nd offence for speeding and I have been driving for 20 years unsupervised


OK, in the interests of pedancy, 2 speeding offences (SAC for one, and this one) plus another endorseable offence.

If you've had your full car DL for less than 2 years, i fail to understand how you've been driving unsupervised for 20 years. wacko.gif

I have been driving for 20 years unsupervised

I ... have drove for 18 years without incident.


Unlawfully.

and are you here as a conscientious objector to this site or have you been UNLAWFUL yourself?? If you have been unlawful yourself don't preach to me thanks...

QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 21:17) *
You didn't answer the question, how can you claim to have driven for (18) years unsupervised if you hadn't passed a test?

Well...... I took lessons and I drove! How do you think people managed to drive before licences? " err we best not drive this automobile we have just invented because we do not have a licence to drive this automobile..... "
mrh3369
If you have little regard to driving lawfully why are you worried about losing your licence? Won't you just drive regardless? The good news is that after revocation if you can face it you can be back on the road legally relatively quickly.
Logician
The best result for you would be a short period of disqualification rather than points on your licence, in which case the New Drivers Act will not operate. As stated, magistrates have guidance not to circumvent the New Drivers Act in this way, but it is guidance only. The point about any guidance is that it may be disregarded in unusual circumstances. Your difficulty with testing means that revoking your licence would cause you problems that are really exceptional, and I think a case could be put to the bench that they should disregard their guidelines in the interests of justice. I suggest you get evidence from a qualified medical professional about your condition and get a motoring specialist solicitor to present your case in court.
Santatiger
cheers Logician I can see the benefit of trying this and as I have nothing to lose, this will be my option thank you I only wish I was kicking the arse out of the law breaching the limit with excess then a ban would have been no problem... go figure??. mrh I have every regard to driving lawfully and most of the time I do. I dare you to show me any driver that has never broke a statute (law) and as I mentioned previous what are you on here for if you have never broke the law yourself??
peterguk
QUOTE (Santatiger @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 22:38) *
I have every regard to driving lawfully and most of the time I do.


Obviously excluding first 18 years. rolleyes.gif
Decker
Am I missing something here? I thought you're not insured if you're driving on a provisional unsupervised are you?

Edited to remove unintentional ad hominem
peterguk
QUOTE (Decker @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 22:55) *
As in you're not insured if you're driving on a provisional unsupervised are you?


Aren't you?
Decker
I genuinely don't know. It wasn't intended as an attack on the OP - I am asking if you are or aren't? As in I'd assume that if I was driving in breach of my license my insurers would wash their hands of me?
Kickaha
IMHO, if you want to try for a short ban then pleading guilty will help get the mags (slightly) onside.
andy_foster
Apologies if this has already been answered, but is your medical condition a 'recognised' one, have you been diagnosed by a doctor and could you produce some form of evidence from a doctor to the effect that taking tests causes you exceptional difficulty?
CuriousOrange
QUOTE (Decker @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 22:55) *
Am I missing something here? I thought you're not insured if you're driving on a provisional unsupervised are you?
It depends on the terms of the policy.

If the OP took out policies over eighteen years with a provisional licence, maybe none of them made supervision a requirement, but I'd be surprised.

Personally I think the OP might want to keep their mouth shut about their previous 18 years of trouble-free driving when they get to court. rolleyes.gif

If they become aware of the SAC, third offence in a year is going to require some extremely understanding magistrates to plead for a ban in a 57 to avoid revocation.
southpaw82
QUOTE (Santatiger @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 22:38) *
what are you on here for if you have never broke the law yourself??


Providing advice and assistance to people such as you? Please don't question the motives of people trying to assist you.
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