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mpesm
Dear all,

I need your help again please.

My husband was driving down Marlborough Road in Islington (one way street) and thought our car was too wide for the width restriction so went through what we now know was for fire trucks only. He has this penalty notice and doesn't have that long to appeal now (approx 5 days). Is it worth fighting? I would say the yellow writing on the road was not that clear. I have also taken a shot from google maps but not sure how up to date it is.

Just wonder if the 38JL contravention is correct too?

Thanks as always
E









orford
Pretty much bang to rights. I'd pay the £65, but at least your car isn't scratched.
EDW
I would not pay. The PCN does not state if you have to pass to the left or right.

mpesm
QUOTE (EDW @ Wed, 2 Oct 2013 - 19:12) *
I would not pay. The PCN does not state if you have to pass to the left or right.


Thanks for the reply. The signage does show you though.

Do you think it would be a valid reason though? Happy to give it a go if you think it might stand.
orford
I would have thought that the large white arrow and the keep left bollard 'specify' which side of the sign you are meant to pass.
mpesm
QUOTE (orford @ Wed, 2 Oct 2013 - 20:10) *
I would have thought that the large white arrow and the keep left bollard 'specify' which side of the sign you are meant to pass.


I have not disputed that anywhere in my post. I am asking is there any technicality I can use to not pay this fine.
EDW
pcn must state L or R.
Incandescent
QUOTE (mpesm @ Wed, 2 Oct 2013 - 20:16) *
QUOTE (orford @ Wed, 2 Oct 2013 - 20:10) *
I would have thought that the large white arrow and the keep left bollard 'specify' which side of the sign you are meant to pass.


I have not disputed that anywhere in my post. I am asking is there any technicality I can use to not pay this fine.

The only possible technicality is (1) a fatal error of content in the PCN, i.e. legally mandated information is missing and (2) the installation has been carried out incorrectly, or the TRO to enforce the road restriction is drafted incorrectly. Basically, you're bang-to-rights on what you have posted so far. Best thing is not to live in London and be a cash resource to be exploited.
JaffaJim
The PCN alleges you (the OP) failed to pass the sign in the correct direction. But the pictures on the PCN don't show any signs. There are also two technical errors that could be exploited here:

1. The time periods for payment and for making reps are different under the LLA 2003. However, the third paragraph on the front page says begins "if you do not pay or do not make reps before the 28-day period" - which of the 28-day periods that they have just quoted in paragraphs one or two are they referring to? Confusing at best.

2. The TWOC ground is fettered as it implies that the car needs to have been stolen to able to be use this ground. Not the case

It's always worth challenging as the Council usually reoffer the discount if they refuse the challenge. However, under the LLA 2003, I don't believe they have to. I would approach a challenge for this PCN by stating as you have done, that you believed your vehicle was too wide to go through the correct gap, so you used the other gap. It was an honest mistake and you must specifically ask for an exercise of discretion. You could also then, in an informal way, throw in the above technical points.

The council are likely to refuse, but they may make errors in their letter. The usual one is to say that you have "not established an exemption" to enforcement. But you actually asked for discretion, which is not the same thing as establishing an exemption; this can be indicative of improper consideration.

The other thing that this Council do is that on their letters of rejection (or case summaries for that matter) for LLA 2003 PCNs, they almost always state in the headers that the PCN was issued at the time of the contravention. No it wasn't, it was a few days later. I don't buy that that is simply an error in the way their systems are set up - my experience is that they truly don't understand the difference.

You'll see that if the above route is followed, the council can mess up, which becomes the case for cancelling. But you must be confident in your ability to present the above arguments, and be prepared to risk the discount, and risk losing, if you do challenge. Only you can decide.
mpesm
QUOTE (JaffaJim @ Thu, 3 Oct 2013 - 08:51) *
The PCN alleges you (the OP) failed to pass the sign in the correct direction. But the pictures on the PCN don't show any signs. There are also two technical errors that could be exploited here:

1. The time periods for payment and for making reps are different under the LLA 2003. However, the third paragraph on the front page says begins "if you do not pay or do not make reps before the 28-day period" - which of the 28-day periods that they have just quoted in paragraphs one or two are they referring to? Confusing at best.

2. The TWOC ground is fettered as it implies that the car needs to have been stolen to able to be use this ground. Not the case

It's always worth challenging as the Council usually reoffer the discount if they refuse the challenge. However, under the LLA 2003, I don't believe they have to. I would approach a challenge for this PCN by stating as you have done, that you believed your vehicle was too wide to go through the correct gap, so you used the other gap. It was an honest mistake and you must specifically ask for an exercise of discretion. You could also then, in an informal way, throw in the above technical points.

The council are likely to refuse, but they may make errors in their letter. The usual one is to say that you have "not established an exemption" to enforcement. But you actually asked for discretion, which is not the same thing as establishing an exemption; this can be indicative of improper consideration.

The other thing that this Council do is that on their letters of rejection (or case summaries for that matter) for LLA 2003 PCNs, they almost always state in the headers that the PCN was issued at the time of the contravention. No it wasn't, it was a few days later. I don't buy that that is simply an error in the way their systems are set up - my experience is that they truly don't understand the difference.

You'll see that if the above route is followed, the council can mess up, which becomes the case for cancelling. But you must be confident in your ability to present the above arguments, and be prepared to risk the discount, and risk losing, if you do challenge. Only you can decide.


Thanks for this. I thought if I appeal and lose i still get the discounted price. That changes things if they insist on full payment. Mmm, think may just pay this although it kills me to!
Incandescent
QUOTE
Thanks for this. I thought if I appeal and lose i still get the discounted price. That changes things if they insist on full payment. Mmm, think may just pay this although it kills me to!


Yeah, that's how councils get away with breaking the law. Those who fold and pay-up are in the vast majority, more's the pity. Only about 2% appeal so councils continue in their not-so-merry way.
JaffaJim
QUOTE (mpesm @ Sat, 5 Oct 2013 - 11:30) *
Thanks for this. I thought if I appeal and lose i still get the discounted price. That changes things if they insist on full payment. Mmm, think may just pay this although it kills me to!


By my reckoning the discount period expires today so if you intend to pay at the discount, you need to do it pretty sharpish!

If you don't pay in time, or have decided to challenge (see caveats in my earlier post), come back here for advice to formulate your appeal.
mpesm
QUOTE (JaffaJim @ Mon, 7 Oct 2013 - 13:22) *
QUOTE (mpesm @ Sat, 5 Oct 2013 - 11:30) *
Thanks for this. I thought if I appeal and lose i still get the discounted price. That changes things if they insist on full payment. Mmm, think may just pay this although it kills me to!


By my reckoning the discount period expires today so if you intend to pay at the discount, you need to do it pretty sharpish!

If you don't pay in time, or have decided to challenge (see caveats in my earlier post), come back here for advice to formulate your appeal.


I think we have until Thursday? Date if notice is 26th. This site has always come up trumps and I have not had to pay a fine yet (always appeal)... very tempted to dispute it.
JaffaJim
For some reason I thought today was the 9th... d'oh. merror.gif

So you actually have up to and including Wednesday, the date of the notice is the first day.

Am sure we will help if you do decide to dispute it.
EDW
QUOTE (mpesm @ Mon, 7 Oct 2013 - 20:19) *
QUOTE (JaffaJim @ Mon, 7 Oct 2013 - 13:22) *
QUOTE (mpesm @ Sat, 5 Oct 2013 - 11:30) *
Thanks for this. I thought if I appeal and lose i still get the discounted price. That changes things if they insist on full payment. Mmm, think may just pay this although it kills me to!


By my reckoning the discount period expires today so if you intend to pay at the discount, you need to do it pretty sharpish!

If you don't pay in time, or have decided to challenge (see caveats in my earlier post), come back here for advice to formulate your appeal.


I think we have until Thursday? Date if notice is 26th. This site has always come up trumps and I have not had to pay a fine yet (always appeal)... very tempted to dispute it.



I'd appeal but your money, you choose
Hippocrates
The PCN has two flaws: limits to one ground and fetters to theft re one of them. I note they have not changed this PCN yet!
mpesm
QUOTE (EDW @ Mon, 7 Oct 2013 - 22:28) *
QUOTE (mpesm @ Mon, 7 Oct 2013 - 20:19) *
QUOTE (JaffaJim @ Mon, 7 Oct 2013 - 13:22) *
QUOTE (mpesm @ Sat, 5 Oct 2013 - 11:30) *
Thanks for this. I thought if I appeal and lose i still get the discounted price. That changes things if they insist on full payment. Mmm, think may just pay this although it kills me to!


By my reckoning the discount period expires today so if you intend to pay at the discount, you need to do it pretty sharpish!

If you don't pay in time, or have decided to challenge (see caveats in my earlier post), come back here for advice to formulate your appeal.


I think we have until Thursday? Date if notice is 26th. This site has always come up trumps and I have not had to pay a fine yet (always appeal)... very tempted to dispute it.



I'd appeal but your money, you choose

Thanks again for everyone's time and input. I really do appreciate it. Unfortunately my husband paid the fine while I was at work today so too late now. It's a lesson learnt anyway albeit expensive!
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